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Old 28th August 2014, 15:40
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Bf 109 against Bf 109?

I have read that Luftwaffe´s Bf 109 units had sometimes to face an enemy who also flew with Bf 109!

I wonder if anyone knows about this incidents (if they are true?) and if there are combat reports available:

1) German vs. Swiss Bf 109´s during the summer of 1940? This may have been caused by the German planes entering in Swiss airspace.

2) German vs. Yugoslav Bf 109 in April 1941. I remember to have read about combats, when Luftwaffe pilots encountered mixed formations of Yugoslav fighters, which included also Bf 109.

3) German vs. Romanian Bf 109´s in late summer/autumn 1944 - this may have happened when Romania switched sides.

It would be interesting to know the victory and loss records of both sides during these combats.
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Old 28th August 2014, 17:12
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: Bf 109 against Bf 109?

No combat between Swiss Bf 109 and German Bf 109 occured, only between Swiss Bf 109 and German Bf 110. The two others occured, respectively fought by pilots of JG 27 and JG 52.

Regards

Alfred
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Old 28th August 2014, 18:49
Don Pearson Don Pearson is offline
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Re: Bf 109 against Bf 109?

There are several examples in the claims files of aircraft of German origin lost in 1944, likely Romanian.

Don
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Old 28th August 2014, 20:13
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Re: Bf 109 against Bf 109?

IIRC there were combats between LW's and Yugoslavian 109s in Apr 41.

Juha
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Old 29th August 2014, 14:32
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: Bf 109 against Bf 109?

My guess is that the most intense Bf 109 vs. Bf 109 combats took place during the first days of Axis Invasion of Yugoslavia, probably on 6.-10.4.1941. According to wiki Bf 109 E 3 was together with Hurricane Mk I the backbone of Yugoslav fighter force. They had also some home-built IK-2 and IK-3

I did read something about this from the old book, which was published in "Aircraft in profile" -series. There was an article on Yugo-built IK-3, which stated that IK 3 was a preferred target for German Bf 109 pilots because IK was easy to identify as enemy plane. Maybe Germans initially hesitated to attack Yugoslav Bf 109´s because they were not sure if they were "friendly" or enemy.
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Old 29th August 2014, 15:15
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Re: Bf 109 against Bf 109?

Hi all,
find attached what I have on bf109 vs bf109 during Operation Marita - Balkan campaign. The luftwaffe fighter pilots have been briefed prior to the opening of clashes about the possibility to meet an enemy using the same type of planes as themselves. The Royal Yugoslavian Air Force used bf109 e3a ( export version), and the number of those planes lost in aerial combats show that there was no hesitation to take them on in combat.

Cheers
Horst
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Last edited by hihotte; 6th March 2015 at 08:18.
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Old 29th August 2014, 15:16
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Re: Bf 109 against Bf 109?

Sources on 109 v. 109 combat:

Sime Ostric, Les Messerschmitt Yugoslaves, Les Me-109E-3, le Me-108 Taifun et l. Unique Me-110 de l' Aviation Royale Yugoslave, Avions Hors Serie n. 26., Paris, Lela Press, 2009.

Many Souffair, Les Meserschmitt Bf 109 Romains, AirMag Hors Serie, Paris, Air Magazine, 2002.
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Old 29th August 2014, 18:59
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
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Re: Bf 109 against Bf 109?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hihotte View Post
Hi all,
find attached what I have on bf109 vs bf109 during Operation Marita - Balkan campaign. The luftwaffe fighter pilots have been briefed prior to the opening of clashes about the possibility to meet an enemy using the same type of planes as themselves. The Royal Yugoslavian Air Force used bf109 e3a ( export version), and the number of those planes lost in aerial combats show that there was no hesitation to take them on in combat.

Cheers
Horst
Looked on the files and found that Luftwaffe fighter pilots claimed 17 Yugoslav Bf 109 E on 6.4.1941 and four more on 7.4. - crushing blow to the Yugo Bf 109 fleet. However, I wonder if there any Yugoslav records (losses + claims) available? - they may change a bit the picture of the air battles of 6-7.4.1941.

A minor detail - during the operation Marita most Luftwaffe fighter units were still equipped with Emils, if I remember correctly. There were perhaps some Bf 109 F in Yugoslavian Campaign, but so few that they probably did not have much significance. So it was mostly Emil 4/7 vs. Emil 3? Was Emil 4 or Emil 7 so superior to Emil 3a that it would have made considerable difference in combat?
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Old 30th August 2014, 08:09
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Re: Bf 109 against Bf 109?

Forum member Denes Bernad describes combat between Luftwaffe and Rumanian Bf 109Gs in February 1945 in his excellent book 'Rumanian Aces of World War 2'. Rumanian aces Cantacuzino and Darjan shot down by JG 53, according to Denes. Darjan was KIA. No doubt Denes can add further when he visits the forum, or get hold of the book.

Cheers

Don W
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Old 30th August 2014, 13:20
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Re: Bf 109 against Bf 109?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuerraCivil View Post
Looked on the files and found that Luftwaffe fighter pilots claimed 17 Yugoslav Bf 109 E on 6.4.1941 and four more on 7.4. - crushing blow to the Yugo Bf 109 fleet. However, I wonder if there any Yugoslav records (losses + claims) available? - they may change a bit the picture of the air battles of 6-7.4.1941.

A minor detail - during the operation Marita most Luftwaffe fighter units were still equipped with Emils, if I remember correctly. There were perhaps some Bf 109 F in Yugoslavian Campaign, but so few that they probably did not have much significance. So it was mostly Emil 4/7 vs. Emil 3? Was Emil 4 or Emil 7 so superior to Emil 3a that it would have made considerable difference in combat?

You can find info at least from Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete, 1940-41 by Christopher Shores, Brian Cull and Nicola Malizia (1987).

Juha

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