Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 19th December 2019, 09:28
GMichalski's Avatar
GMichalski GMichalski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 372
GMichalski is on a distinguished road
Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Hi,

have you any info of the losses for JG 52 or Peter Duttmann this day, there are some Hungarian claims and my info is confusing,

thanks,
regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 19th December 2019, 10:50
HGabor HGabor is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,008
HGabor will become famous soon enough
Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Found Peter Düttmann's claims even less reliable than Hartmann's. (Not judging the cause, just telling the conclusion.) His 3 claims on November 13, 1944 (2 Yak-11s in the Tápiószőllős area and an IL-2 in the Jászberény area) seem to be 100% overclaim.

There were only 2 Yak losses in the morning on November 13, 1944 in the 5th Air Army, lost in dogfights:

One was a Yak-3 (wrongly called Yak-11?) near Ócsa at 10:41 Moscow time - 08:41 local at the altitude of 3500 m. (from 5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 'red nose' 150 GvIAP, Yak-3, S/N: 3518, engine: 422-174, pilot: Gv.1Lt. Nikolai Alexeevich Kireev bailed out, wounded, sent to hospital.) 6 Yak-3 vs. 13 Me 109. A pair of Me 109s downed him. Time difference: ~20 mins., distance diff.: ~50-60 km from Düttmann's claims.

The other Yak (Yak-9D, S/N: 1815358) was lost around 11:54AM local time, so here I don't even go in the details. Same with the IL-2.

Gabor
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 19th December 2019, 11:55
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 828
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Hi Gabor,

So whose claims to these losses actually match?

Regards
Nick
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 19th December 2019, 13:44
HGabor HGabor is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,008
HGabor will become famous soon enough
Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Hi Nick,
Sorry, I have no idea. Most claims that I know are for the afternoon. I have never collected claims (as they are sometimes just pure fiction, repeated by multiple Publications and 'experts', without having any info from the 'other side'), I have always been focusing on the losses, that are 'verified by their owners', therefore reflect the real events much better. Certainly I can make links between them in some specific cases, but to me the loss records are much more valuable.

5 VA, 451 ShAP IL-2, S/N: 1873177 was lost to Flak(!) at 14:50 Moscow time, 12:50 local and crashlanded at Besenyszög-E, crew (Capt. Chechenev - Sgt. Moiseev) unhurt. I think it does not fit Düttmann's IL-2 claim for '12:2' in the Jászberény area.

Yak-3, S/N: 3518, or '3529218' (as being from factory no.292 in Saratov), by the way, was probably marked '35'. Since the La-5s, La-7s, Yak-3s were factory-marked/numbered with their plane-in-the-batch number, this was No.'35'. (The 35th plane of Yak-3 batch No.18 from Saratov, Russia, factory No.292). See another 'red nose' Yak-3 example from the very same 150 GvIAP: Savelii Vasilevich Nosov's No.'12', alias Yak-3, S/N: 310312 in 1945. (Plane no.12 from Yak-3 batch No.03 from Tbilisi, factory No.31. It was assigned on April 16, 1945.)

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 12th January 2020 at 04:39.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 19th December 2019, 20:22
HGabor HGabor is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,008
HGabor will become famous soon enough
Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Other lost IL-2m3 on November 13, 1944 was IL-2 (S/N: 10454, AM-38F engine: 4590224) from 5 VA, 235 ShAP, which was downed by Flak and crashed into a house in Jászberény at 12:30 Moscow time, 10:30 local. Crew of ml.lt. Burkanov - Lyalin was killed/missing. Location would match Düttmann's IL-2 claim, but the cause of loss and the time of crash wouldn't. (Eight 235 ShAP IL-2s (Comm.: Denisenko) were escoreted by four 513 IAP Yak-9s, when flak hit Burkanov's plane.)


IL-2, S/N.: 1873177 (AM-38F engine No.: 4590226) was discussed previously.

The 3rd 5 Air Army IL-2 loss this day was IL-2, S/N: 9947 (AM-38F engine No.: 259496) which crashlanded during a ferry flight landing on the Kunmadaras airfield. 1 man crew(!) of ml.lt. Vasilevich was unhurt. Plane was flown and crashed without a gunner.

5 VA, 187 GvShAP IL-2, S/N: 1872913 exploded mid-air at low altitude at 15:45 Moscow time, 13:45 local, over Zsámbok-S, 3 km with the Bukanov-Maslov crew onboard, due to tank fire. (~Flakpanzer, or flakvierling) Both crewmen were KIA. 9 IL-2s (Comm.: Kulikov) were escorted by 6 La-5s in the Zsámbok-Tura area.

None of them matches Düttmann's IL-2 claim!

Other IL-2s (S/N: 1882202, 9547, 303505, 11180 - from the 208, 525, 637 ShAPs) were downed far away over Southern-Slovakia from the 8th Air Army, etc... Hope this helps for Düttmann.

Gabor
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 20th December 2019, 15:57
GMichalski's Avatar
GMichalski GMichalski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Spain
Posts: 372
GMichalski is on a distinguished road
Thumbs up Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

hi,

many thanks for your help,


regards
__________________
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger [Wingman], you have lost your battle."
Dietrich Hrabak

"The wingman is absolutely indispensable. I look after the wingman. The wingman looks after me....."
Francis S. "Gabby" Gabreski,

"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 20th December 2019, 17:57
HGabor HGabor is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,008
HGabor will become famous soon enough
Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

You are welcome. Soviet military documents at TsAMO (Central Military Archives of the Russian Federation in Podolsk, Russia) are the ultimate sources for the Eastern Front combat research. They have all of the loss reports (alias soviet 'MACR's) of downed planes, air unit diaries, mechanical-, maintenance logbooks, - everything. Combat diaries have serial number cross references for AC inventory reports, mechanical papers. No soviet plane-loss can be hidden or missed here at least for the later years of WWII, like 1944 or 1945. This is the ultimate test for the German and Axis fighter-claims. They can pass, or fail here. Hartmann, Düttmann and all of the others. Since I was not there, I cannot judge if they did, or did not hit their opponents in the air. Probably they did. But a large number of them was not a real loss/victory, - only damage. Afterall WWII was won/lost not in offices, in propaganda, or in statistics, but on the real frontlines. Certainly the soviet claims are also full of mistakes and overclaims. But not their loss reports! They knew what they had and what they had lost. Their documents were recorded at multiple levels of the military hierarchy with cross references, so planes could not just 'disappear' in there. I hope in the future more and more research will be available on the subject, which will change our view of WWII and the REAL achievements/results of the Axis-Allied fighter pilots and aces. So far the story was unfortunately way too one-sided, and the long claim-lists were treated as 'facts'.

Cheers,
Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 12th January 2020 at 04:39.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 21st December 2019, 01:07
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 828
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Thanks for posting these two folios, Gabor. More of this stuff needs to be published so that the myths and untruths are replaced by what really happened
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 21st December 2019, 12:44
HGabor HGabor is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,008
HGabor will become famous soon enough
Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Nick, you are welcome. Certainly we are working on it. Unfortunately my book (2013): 'Bostons in the Hungarian Sky and Soil' is not available now, but more and more publications are available based on our research and recoveries. One of our recovery project was IL-2 No.18842110 of 210 ShAP, which was downed by German flak on March 14, 1945 near Seregélyes, Hungary. Part of the engine block was recovered with partial No.58 on it. This was the hint that helped to identify the plane. We went through all of the soviet IL-2 MACRs for March, 1945 when the battles took place in the area and only 2 were found, where the AM-38F engine serial ended '58'. Plane S/N: 18842110 with engine №2510758 here, the other one far away from this site. This positively identified the plane of the Lev Constantinovich Vorobiev pilot (KIA) and Ivan Parfentevich Subbotin gunner (POW) crew which was downed here in IL-2, tail no.'30' on March 14, 1945 by German flak. For the recovery our Russian researcher friends came from Russia and even the Russian TV made a short documentary as well. The family of Vorobiev was contacted and a late, old relative of him visited the site. Placed flowers and received some recovered belongings of the killed pilot, who was missing for almost 70 years...
So our museum has a huge database of Soviet MACRs we use to identify recovered planes mainly by their engine serial - just like here. Service history of IL-2 No.18842110:

June 17, 1944: engine No.2510758 built at Factory No.24, shipped to Factory 18 in Kuybishev
July 7, 1944: IL-2 No.18842110 is finished with engine No.2510758 in Factory No.18
September 6, 1944: 18 UTAP hands over the plane to 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP
November 19, 1944: plane is being repaired in Szeged, Hungary
February 28, 1945: 210 ShAP hands over the plane to 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 715 ShAP
March 10, 1945: plane returns to 210 ShAP from 715 ShAP
March 14, 1945: plane is lost with the Vorobiev (KIA) - Subbotin (POW) crew at Seregélyes-SW, Hungary.

But speaking of March 14, 1945 and Düttmann in this thread, I should mention that in the same area we also recovered one of Düttmann's REAL victims, a soviet A-20G 'Boston' bomber of 17 VA, 244 BAD, 861 BAP (Bomb Group) that Düttmann downed on March 14, 1945. The plane exploded in mid-air and covered the fields at Seregélyes-W, near Pálinkaházpuszta. Plane was A-20G-40-DO 'Boston', S/N: 43-21519 and was built at Santa Monica, Calif., U.S.A. on March 18, 1944.

According to the soviet documents the lost crew of A-20G, S/N: 43-21519 (R-2600-23 engines: 105954, 105698) was:

2Lt. Vladimir Nikolaevich Bahvalov pilot (KIA)
2Lt. Petr Konstantinovich Maiorov bombardier (KIA)
Sgt. Pavel Mikhailovich Zolotov radioman-gunner (KIA)
Sgt. Ivan Fodorovich Solianik gunner (KIA)

See the recovered small dataplate, that positively identified the crew as Düttmann's victim on March 14, 1945. So his 3 claims on November 13, 1944 were all overclaims, but his Boston claim on March 14, 1945 was a real victory.

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 12th January 2020 at 04:39.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 21st December 2019, 13:31
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 828
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Peter Duttmann 13,11.44 claims

Cheers, Gabor

I remember you mentioning this one before. As far as accuracy of claims go, Duettmann appears to be somewhere between as good as Lipfert and as bad as Hartmann
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Strange case of Walter Dahl Johannes Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 110 28th December 2018 23:59
Peter Duttmann vs "panzer" focusfocus Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 63 21st August 2018 12:31
Erich Hartmann: verifiable claims Broncazonk Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 70 26th January 2017 18:13
Kg51 "edelweiss" the complete history of kg 51 in world war ii". Mike H Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 14 8th February 2015 12:24
Dogfights over Sworbe 18-23.Nov.1944 questions. Part 1. German claims vs Soviet losses Andrey Kuznetsov Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 3rd February 2012 18:40


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net