Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 30th November 2018, 13:29
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 889
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Hi Michael

Don't know, between 14th of December 1944 and 14th January 1945, but guess you already know that. I have a feeling his flugbuch survived the war, perhaps it will surface one day.

Regards

Johannes

Another thought I had was that these Leistungsbuch papers came from the Hans Ring collection, I do know that he sometimes like to play games, he produced an abschusselist for Woidich which explains the 110 claims often quoted for him, yet his own abschusselist doesn't contain the twenty-eight claims for July 1944 that Ring included, in fact these twenty-eight claims not only do not fit the constant pattern of Woidich's claims, but JG 52 just wasn't claiming this month...…..I would guess because they were constantly moving base.
I think the huge Ring collection has started to surface in sales as Hans is now in a care home, he is a strange guy, often very friendly, and cared for his Mother who he lived with, guess she must have died, I can remember when she was 103 years old, and that's a few years ago.

See Woidich attached biography and note the(Ring)July 1944 claims(not on the mikrofilms) and see how out of place they appear.Woidich.Franz-Walter@.xls
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 2nd December 2018, 20:40
knusel's Avatar
knusel knusel is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Brandenburg, Germany
Posts: 1,033
knusel is on a distinguished road
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Good evening Johannes,

yes you mentioned that strange Woidich issue.
http://www.jg52.net/ritterkreuztraeger/franz-woidich/
What might have been the motivation of Hans Ring to do this ?

Have a good December,

Michael
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 3rd December 2018, 16:21
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 889
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Hi Michael

Have never meet Herr Ring, but a couple of my friends have. They said he was a friendly and generous guy, so don't know what motivated him. He used to attend lots of Luftwaffe reunions, then one day somebody upset him, don't know who or what was said, but Herr Ring then stopped attending reunions, and basically stopped cooperating with Luftwaffe enthusiasts.

I can only imagine that his motivation was being tired of being constantly asked for information, so liked to play a joke or two.

I think he is still alive and living in a care home, as his Mother lived well into her hundreds then hopefully his own lifespan will be a very long one. His most wonderful documental collection seems to be being sold-off. Whereas I would like to get hold of some of this, well the biggest Luftwaffe documental collection in the World, I guess I am just happy that it's importance has been understood and it's not just been thrown in a skip somewhere.


Kind Regards


Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 3rd December 2018, 21:15
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,492
kaki3152 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

I noticed that all the photographs attributed to Herr Ring in the original "Fighters Over Tunisia' have not been included in the new New Mediterranean series by C. Shores.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 4th December 2018, 10:08
knusel's Avatar
knusel knusel is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Brandenburg, Germany
Posts: 1,033
knusel is on a distinguished road
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Good morning Johannes,

Dahl might have fooled Hans Ring with a faked Leistungsbuch,
Woidich's 110 kills might be a bogus of Ring himself,
do you think there is hope to clarify Kurt Tanzer's "143" kills by use of the Hans Ring collection ?
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...zer#post258122

Have a good Tuesday,

Michael
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 4th December 2018, 11:24
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 889
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Hi Michael

Agreed, it's hard to tell what is correct here.

Regarding Kurt Tanzer, still very baffling, purely by memory he gets a Ritterkreuz for just thirty or so Russian claims...……..way too few, though he was Rorrenflieger to Oskar-Heinz Bar and Karl-Gottfried Nordmann, he gets wounded in May 1943 and doesn't return to combat(allegedly) until 1945, yet his wound cannot have been that great, wounded in the hand!, you might expect to be flying again the next day, a few months off if you loose the whole hand, again puzzling. The Mikrofilms should have shown him if he claimed before December 1944, but again nothing, I do have him mentioned in a flugbuch of a JG51 pilot during April 1945, so he definitely returned to actual combat as a Staffelkapitan in 1945.

Just where we get the 128 or 143 from originally I just don't know, you would surmise a miss quote of 43, yet we are informed of seventeen Western "kills" including four viermots……...now that's very specific indeed. Ernst Obermaier's biography is very vague after May 1943, in fact nothing until September 1944, though Ernst estimates/guestimates his hundredth falling around June 1944...…...but this is just purely subtracting an average kill rate until the wars end. Basically as John Foreman has always maintained "once published, it's cast in stone" i.e Herr Obermaier's work is so well respected that everybody just copies it.


What we need in a flugbuch, preferably his last, we don't know how he surrendered in 1945, if to the Russian's perhaps he destroyed his last flugbuch, if to the American's it's likely to have been stolen. Hopefully somebody can answer the question of how he surrendered.


Tanzer never really reached any great rank, so I would not expect him to have been making false claims, unless a trade-off with a noteworthy superior, and we are informed by Obermaier about the Bar/Nordmann connection...…….but is even this correct, by my estimates Bar had left Russia before Tanzer's arrival, and Nordmann was rarely flying combat. Another option would be that Tanzer had changed his name and that he had many more claims prior to being wounded , but I don't think this is the case.


I believe that basically we know nothing factual about the guy except thirty something "kills" before being wounded, and that he returned to combat during 1945. Let's the specialists dig into his past, perhaps it'll dig up something.


Ernst Obermaiers first (and inferior of the two) publication was I think in 1968, Tanzer dies in 1960, but there is no reason why they shouldn't have been in communication , or actually met, It is possible that Tanzer stated the figures Obermaier used...…...he lied, but as he doesn't seem to be an over-claimer(With Walther Dahl we can dismiss his honesty), it's not likely. Perhaps also somebody can do a claims/losses comparison, though it wont's be easy with so many claims made.


Kind Regards


Johannes


Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 4th December 2018, 12:30
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 728
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Hi Michael

Agreed, it's hard to tell what is correct here.

Regarding Kurt Tanzer, still very baffling, purely by memory he gets a Ritterkreuz for just thirty or so Russian claims...……..way too few, though he was Rorrenflieger to Oskar-Heinz Bar and Karl-Gottfried Nordmann, he gets wounded in May 1943 and doesn't return to combat(allegedly) until 1945, yet his wound cannot have been that great, wounded in the hand!, you might expect to be flying again the next day, a few months off if you loose the whole hand, again puzzling. The Mikrofilms should have shown him if he claimed before December 1944, but again nothing, I do have him mentioned in a flugbuch of a JG51 pilot during April 1945, so he definitely returned to actual combat as a Staffelkapitan in 1945.

Just where we get the 128 or 143 from originally I just don't know, you would surmise a miss quote of 43, yet we are informed of seventeen Western "kills" including four viermots……...now that's very specific indeed. Ernst Obermaier's biography is very vague after May 1943, in fact nothing until September 1944, though Ernst estimates/guestimates his hundredth falling around June 1944...…...but this is just purely subtracting an average kill rate until the wars end. Basically as John Foreman has always maintained "once published, it's cast in stone" i.e Herr Obermaier's work is so well respected that everybody just copies it.


What we need in a flugbuch, preferably his last, we don't know how he surrendered in 1945, if to the Russian's perhaps he destroyed his last flugbuch, if to the American's it's likely to have been stolen. Hopefully somebody can answer the question of how he surrendered.


Tanzer never really reached any great rank, so I would not expect him to have been making false claims, unless a trade-off with a noteworthy superior, and we are informed by Obermaier about the Bar/Nordmann connection...…….but is even this correct, by my estimates Bar had left Russia before Tanzer's arrival, and Nordmann was rarely flying combat. Another option would be that Tanzer had changed his name and that he had many more claims prior to being wounded , but I don't think this is the case.


I believe that basically we know nothing factual about the guy except thirty something "kills" before being wounded, and that he returned to combat during 1945. Let's the specialists dig into his past, perhaps it'll dig up something.


Ernst Obermaiers first (and inferior of the two) publication was I think in 1968, Tanzer dies in 1960, but there is no reason why they shouldn't have been in communication , or actually met, It is possible that Tanzer stated the figures Obermaier used...…...he lied, but as he doesn't seem to be an over-claimer(With Walther Dahl we can dismiss his honesty), it's not likely. Perhaps also somebody can do a claims/losses comparison, though it wont's be easy with so many claims made.


Kind Regards


Johannes


Johannes
Johannes, would you like me to share what I have on Tanzer?
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 5th December 2018, 12:48
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,809
Stig Jarlevik is on a distinguished road
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Yes please Nick

(Just in case Johannes misses this offer... )

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 5th December 2018, 13:15
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 889
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Hi Nick

Yes, that is a big yes for Tanzer information, anything really, he is actually very obscure, almost unbelievable so considering his Ritterkreuz status.

Your expectantly

Last edited by Johannes; 5th December 2018 at 16:01.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 6th December 2018, 21:04
knusel's Avatar
knusel knusel is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Brandenburg, Germany
Posts: 1,033
knusel is on a distinguished road
Re: Strange case of Walter Dahl

Nick Hector claims to have decisive Tanzer documents ?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
List of the Legion condor pilots martin66 Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation 15 29th December 2016 13:41
Ritterkreuzträger Profile 12: Walter Dahl. edwest Books and Magazines 2 26th April 2013 18:35
Wekusta 1 strange case 21.Apr.42 Andrey Kuznetsov Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 10 10th June 2012 21:58
Walter Schuck Book Klaus Schiffler Books and Magazines 15 1st July 2007 08:55
Photos + edwest Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 16th January 2005 01:12


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net