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Old 1st December 2018, 23:24
Kurtl12 Kurtl12 is offline
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Victory of Fw. Friedrich SCHEER 8./JG 53 on May 24th, 1944

Gentlemen,

I'm looking for details about Fw. Friedrich Scheer's 10th. victory. It was a P-38 on May 24th, 1944. It is listed as a supplemental claim in Tony Woods fighter claims - details about time and location are missing.
Fw. Scheer was with the 8./JG 53 and based at Arlena di Castro Airfield some miles north of Rome. The USAAF only lost 2 P-38 over Austria that day. So the actual crashplaces are rather too far from Arlena.
Does anyone have details about short term transfers of III./JG 53 in 1944?

Since Fw. Scheer was a rather experienced fighter pilot I think this is rather interesting....

Thanks for your thoughts! Cheers, Kurtl
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Old 1st December 2018, 23:54
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Re: Victory of Fw. Friedrich SCHEER 8./JG 53 on May 24th, 1944

From ULTRA …

Re 24 May:
(KV 5339) 15.46-16.48: III./JG 53, unknown number of aircraft scramble. 16.06-16.14 battle with 8–10 Spitfires over Monte Amiata (comment: about 45km north east of Grosseto) at very low level. No success, two German pilots baled out slightly wounded.

For the month of May:
(KV 6206) During May III./JG 53 made 693 sorties in 47 operations on 28 days. Average strength and serviceability 28(20). Losses included 4 Bf 109s 100%, 7 Bf 109s over 60%, 2 Bf 109s over 30%. 13 parachute jumps (7 pilots safe and 6 injured). Operations in Anzio area up to 21st.

That second message was not completely intercepted so there's nothing about victories claimed.

Attached is a page from Mediterranean Allied Air Forces daily sitrep for the 24 hours to 19.00 on the 24th (National Archives AIR 23/6510).
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File Type: jpg 409_02.JPG (410.4 KB, 27 views)
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Old 2nd December 2018, 17:57
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Re: Victory of Fw. Friedrich SCHEER 8./JG 53 on May 24th, 1944

To my knowledge,Friedrich Scheer does not claim any "Abchuss" on 24/05/44.
His tenth "Abchusse"(one B-24) would have been (under reserve) claimed on 09/06/44.

The only claim (III/JG53)on 24/05/44 is the fact of Gunther Landt;one Spit but unfounded:no Spit lost (RAF,USAF).

Michel
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Old 2nd December 2018, 18:14
Rottler Rottler is offline
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Re: Victory of Fw. Friedrich SCHEER 8./JG 53 on May 24th, 1944

Hello Kurtl,

according to the JG 53 chronicle of Jochen Prien (Vol. 3 pages 1147, 1148 and 1156) on 23 May 1944 the III./JG 53 encountered a B-26 formation. The Bf 109 G-6 of Fw Scheer was hit and crashed 20 km southeast of Rome. He bailed out and was slightly wounded.
On 24 May 1944 the 8./JG 53 claimed one victory (Ofhr Landt/Spitfire) and had one loss (Uffz Fröschmann).

Regards
Leo
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Old 2nd December 2018, 18:17
Kurtl12 Kurtl12 is offline
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attached you'll find the screenshot of tony woods fighter claims supplemental claims from sources.

@ Nick: thanks for the docs - I did not had that info before.

Maybe in one of Jochen Prien's chronicles about JG53 we could find more? Unfortunatly I do not have that source in my shelf.

here it is:
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File Type: jpg Supplemental Claims from Sources for 24MAY44.jpg (78.0 KB, 19 views)
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Old 2nd December 2018, 18:37
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Re: Victory of Fw. Friedrich SCHEER 8./JG 53 on May 24th, 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtl12 View Post
Maybe in one of Jochen Prien's chronicles about JG53 we could find more? Unfortunately I do not have that source in my shelf.
In his original JG 53 history, Prien only has Fw. Landt's claim for a Spitfire.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 18:42
Kurtl12 Kurtl12 is offline
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Re: Victory of Fw. Friedrich SCHEER 8./JG 53 on May 24th, 1944

here are the "official" claims of ZG 1 for May 24th, 1944. Further you'll see a screenshot of the honor roll of 14. Fighter group for May 24th, 1944. Indeed two P-38 were lost that day and also the places from the claims roughly agree.

We have two eyewitnesses who saw the fight and subsequent crash of P-38J of 2Lt. Teige. Both report that they have seen a low flying SINGLE engined german fighter pulling up straight into the clouds. During that maneuver he hit the American Lightning. It went into a spin and crashed.

ZG 1 were based at Wels, Austria during these days and were equipped with Bf110G's. Isn't it doubtful that an aircraft like this could do a maneuver as stated above? OR is it thinkable that ZG 1 even used Bf 109 / Fw 190?

OR: is there a possibility that our witnesses have seen Fw. Friedrich Scheer of 8./JG 53 in his Bf 109? The actual crash area is loacted 50 km southwest of Vienna, Austria.
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File Type: jpg claims of ZG1 for 24MAY18.jpg (47.3 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg honor roll 14. FG for 24MAY44.jpg (196.1 KB, 28 views)
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Old 2nd December 2018, 19:27
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Victory of Fw. Friedrich SCHEER 8./JG 53 on May 24th, 1944

I can't comment for 1944, but for 1943 the recent Jagdverband books written by Prien and co show many differences with the supplemental claims found in Tony Woods files, that were usually extracted from older Prien books. They show things as they were known 20 or 30 years ago, and research in the meantime has changed many things.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 19:37
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Re: Victory of Fw. Friedrich SCHEER 8./JG 53 on May 24th, 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtl12 View Post
OR: is there a possibility that our witnesses have seen Fw. Friedrich Scheer of 8./JG 53 in his Bf 109? The actual crash area is loacted 50 km southwest of Vienna, Austria.
It's a hell of a long way from Anzio, don't you think?

By evening on the 24th, III./JG 53 had 22 aircraft and expected 12 to be serviceable the following morning; on the evening of the 25th, 11 out of 19 were serviceable.

Attached is a report covering the 25th with a supplement about the 24th.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 04:32
Russell Russell is offline
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Re: Victory of Fw. Friedrich SCHEER 8./JG 53 on May 24th, 1944

Hi All

Very interesting thread. I like the details on the loss of two Bf 109s, the MAW team had only found one.

The summary Nick posted seems to me to relate to May 25th, unless the para at the top of the page relates to the 24th.

The P-38 losses are interesting as there appear on the current state of knowledge to be no single seater fighter claims for them.
Cheers

Russell
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