Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

[Marius]

Martin,
there was not so big German close formation of fighters in the air. The hostile aircraft were recognized as Wellingtons. The timing of victories, sure, there could be some inaccuracies, mistakes etc - maybe 3-4.
But I count some 11-13 (!!!) confirmed victories achieved apparently against the "ghost formation". On the other hand between 14.45-15.06 there wasn`t so much more to shoot down from the Helgoland formation. And at the time these bombers were far, far away from German Bight. They couldn`t stay for 45 minutes at Wangerooge or Borkum, right?

Maybe something wasn`t documented or even deleted after the battle ?

Regards,

[Chris Goss]

I concur with Martin-fog of war?; bottom line one RAF attack and that was it

[John Vasco]

Marius,

One thing to bear in mind is that overclaiming occurred on all sides during the war, whether innocently or otherwise. Check out 74 Squadron's claims for 11th August 1940, or ZG 26 claims for 18th August 1940, or 242 Squadron during their 'Big Wing' operations towards the end of the Battle of Britain. All of these were way off the scale.

I would suggest that is what you are seeing for 18.12.1939 along the lines of what Chris Goss has suggested and stated in the previous post to this one.

[Marius]

Sure, overclamimg happends from time to time. But we should not generalize. For example I./ZG 76 made very trustworthy claims in Poland a few weeks earlier - without any overclaiming. Why should they do this suddenly on 18.12.1939 ?
As I suppose a Wellington Mk.I flew appr. 5 km per minute, means appr. 25 km in 5 minutes. How could the Wellingtons have been near Wangerooge at 14.20, 14.40 and again at 14.55 ???

Gentlemen apparently our well known formation of 22 Wellingtons flew circles between Wilhelmshaven, Heligoland and Borkum again and again, for appr. full 50-60 minutes (250-300 km under German attack). At appr. 15 hours the rest of them left Nordsee and headed for home after every German pilot in the air had his own victory. I understand it was Christmas time very soon...

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

The German and British sides of this story are very different. Based upon German sources it would appear that there were a lot more a/c in the sky over Germany that night. However, ample British records have survived and there is apparently no evidence of more a/c being dispatched on this or a similar mission over German that night, nor a/c losses reported, nor crew casualties identified. By now all the war casualties and a/c losses during this part of the war have long been identified, and it just defies all logic that a number of other British losses could have happened that night. Where is the evidence of the British side? Where are the wreckage photos on the German side?

I have to agree that barring further evidence there is no reason to alter the established British account of what happened on their side. The "ghost mission" was just confusion on the German side--part of the fog of war.

Regarding my earlier questions, I've now studied Peter Cornwell's revised British loss records for this mission in detail. We still haven't identified some of the full crew names and crew positions, but I do have all of the a/c codes for the 37 SQ losses, and only one for the 9 SQ: N2939 was apparently WSoH. I would appreciate an email from Chris Goss for any additional codes that he has, or from anyone else for that matter.

Regarding crashes, only one aircraft crashed on land--sort of. The Wellington of Sgt Herbert Ruse apparently ditched in shallow water alongside a beach at high tide, and later at low tide was full stranded on the beach. Several of the crew were captured and the a/c subsequently burned out:

According to the revised EoE British Loss DB:
18 December 1940: Wellington IA N2936. Shot down by Oberstlt Carl Schumacher (Geschwaderkommodore) of Stab JG1 and ditched and burned out just offshore Borkum (Spiekeroog) Island ca 1.45 p.m. Sergeant T. W. Holley and Corporal F. J. Taylor both killed in fighter attacks, (Pilot) Sergeant H. Ruse, Sergeant T. May, and Leading Aircraftsman H. A. Jones all captured. Aircraft LF*J a write-off. (Weiss)"

Here is one of the three photos I have in the EoE Photo DB for what must be that a/c.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-m7n...-m7ncfwt-L.jpg

Another can be found in "The Battle of Heligoland Bight 1939" by Robin Holmes P.8 of the photo section. He identifies it as N2936. Neither Peter Cornwell nor I have found any photo evidence of other crashes on German territory that night.

Does anyone know of any photos of other a/c taken either before being lost or of survivors after the mission that would help in creating color profiles for this mission?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Marius]

Hello Larry,
I am wondering why you are talking about a NIGHT attack. According to German victory times the battle took place between appr. 14.20 - 15.05 hours. In this time a Wellington should fly more than 200 km.
I repeat, it is hard to believe it was just one formation attacked again and again whole the way back to England.

Almost all aircraft felt into the North Sea. No big chance to find more wreckages than N2936 at Borkum.

And something else very interesting for all who hardly believe in a "German Fata Morgana". According to German documents the captured crew stated 52 Wellingtons took part in this mission.

Regards,

[Larry Hickey]

Marius,

I was mistaken when I said at night. All our loss reports were during the day. Disregard that.

My opinion remains the same. Where are the missing a/c SN or casualty reports? Even if the British concealed some loss information for public morale purposes at the time, this would have come to light by now. All of this kind of info has been in the public records for a very long time. The Wellington a/c numbers and crew casualties would have all come to light by now.

As you well know, PoWs lie all the time. In my opinion, most of the PoWs wouldn't have known such a detail anyway.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[bearoutwest]

Marius,

Hello there. A couple of things to keep in mind when considering fighter claims:
- The effective range for 20mm cannon fire, means the target aircraft can be as small as the thumb-nail on your hand at full reach away from your face. Under those circumstances, a pilot looking through his gun-sight will see very little else than what he’s focussed on. Another fighter firing at the same target from 200m to his left (or right) will not be necessarily noticed. So two or more fighter pilots could quite sincerely be claiming the same target shot down.
- The more aircraft in the sky, the more likely the chances of overclaiming. Many fighters approaching, many targets being fired at. Pilot A fires at the 2nd aircraft in a vic of target bombers, Pilot B fires at the lead aircraft…..3rd aircraft in target vic catches fire and burns. Both Pilots A and B think they’ve actually hit this aircraft (poor aim, badly harmonised guns, deflection shooting error, any number of reasons). Or have both pilots missed, and Pilot C – unseen by both – has actually hit this target? One shot down – three claim the kill!
- Most of the fighter pilots aren’t going to watch their target crash. It’s generally a quick pass, and reposition for another pass or another target. Especially if there are escorting fighters…the heart and other lower muscles will be contracting fast….adrenalin flowing….time for quick glances only….keep watching your back. No escorts in the case of the Heligoland raid, but the Luftwaffe Jagdfliegers wouldn’t be slouching around….too many more bombers to kill in this target rich environment.
- Was the second ghost formation an hour later than the first? Is it a matter of confusion in records, due to the different time zones?

Food for thought?
…geoff

[Marius]

Hello there, everything is possible. But you cannot shoot at the same bomber 30 min long staying at one point. One formation of Wellingtons - as I understand it was one diamond formation of 21 Wellingtons flying away from Wilhelmshaven and attacked by II./JG 77 - is flying in that time appr. 150 km away.

For one example let us look at the island of Borkum;
First kills were made there at 14.40 hours. More at 14.45, 14.50, 15.00, 15.06. Maybe with a few mistaken times and places - this is not possible. It couldn`t have been the same formation of bombers again and again.

What I can imagine with 149, 9 & 37 Sqd`s are 3 or 4 waves, one formation after another with intervals of 10 minutes to each other. This could be an explanation for time expansion of German claims.
But this was not the case. (?)

Regards,

[Marius]

One more mystery.
According to Volkmar Kühn (Der Seenotdienst der deutschen Luftwaffe, Motorbuch 1978, p. 34) several British crews were rescued by seaplanes. Several means no one or two crews but more, I suppose. Any idea who it was ?

Originally Posted by Jochen Prien

As for the actual RAF losses on December 18th, 1939, this is a subject that has yet to be finally addressed; the RAF attack and the German response fill almost a dozen pages in the revised JG 77 manuscript, based definitely not on secondary sources, and leaving a number of questions that have yet to be answered. It's simply too much to just pack in a short post here.

Regards

Jochen Prien

Herr Prien,
nobody expects you will give us here a dozen pages or other details to read. But maybe you can help to finish this thread with one short, simple sentence.
Here are my questions: could you find another lost aircraft than of 9/37/149 Sqd ? If yes, could you give us just one example ?

Many thanks and all the best for your coming projects.
Regards,