Blenhiem P4827

[dave gaydon]

Dear members
Could someone please confirm the fate of Blenheim P4827?
Any help greatly appreciated.
David.

[Markus]

Blenheim IV (P4827) 139. Sq. RTo...
Shot down 14.5.1940 by Bf 109s Stab I./JG 53 Lt.Dittmar - south/west of Sedan during sotie to bomb troop concentrations between Givonne and Bouillon. Abandoned over Sauville and crashed in woods near La Cassine (Ardennes) 16km SSW of Sedan (15:30).
Sgt. Brady and Sgt. Willsher baled out unhurt. LAC Maddox KIA

[dave gaydon]

Markus many thanks for your quick reply. Please find attached (hopefully) a photograph, I would value your opinion as to the possibility that P4827 was in fact not lost but returned damaged and later abandoned?

David.
I must apoloigise for posting on the wrong forum.

[Fairlop]

Hi,

Attached is another view of this damaged machine.

Michal

[Pieter H]

Gentlemen, I'm lost!

I have multiple pictures of the Blenheim P4827 XD-P (similar to the ones attached above) showing a 139 Sqn aircraft abandoned on a French airfield. It clearly had been salvaged for spare parts, e.g. the engines.

However, the serial P4827 is always linked to the aircraft of sgt Brady, Sgt Willsher and LAC Maddox that was shot down on May 14 over Sedan/Givonne and crashed at La Cassine. Sometimes as 139 Sqn (Markus above, Sacré/Gillet in Bataille Aérienne et Rupture sur la Meuse), sometimes as 114 Sqn (Peter Cornwell in TBoFTaN). However by that time 114 and 139 Sqn were both operating from Plivot, using each others aircraft and crews, so in that sense the squadron number is not a hard indication of the aircraft code.

But whatever the squadron attachment, I can't see how the same aircraft could have been shot down on May 14 and also appear in numerous pictures of a captured aircraft. Misreading of the pictures is no issue, since for once both the serial and fuselage codes are clearly readible.

In other words, the aircraft of Brady and his crew can not have been the P4827, unless I'm missing something. Any clues?

Regards, Pieter

[dave gaydon]

Good Evening all
Thank you for your comments Pieter. Perhaps it is a possibility that perhaps Sgt Potter was flying P4827 that fateful day and managed to return badly shot up?
Now 'Valiant Wings' place Sgt Potter in L9466 could there have been a mix of aircraft allocation in the ORB if that is indeed where Mr Franks gleaned his information?

regards David.

[Peter Cornwell]

This case is a good indication of the parlous state of existing records for RAF units operating in France in the period May – June 1940 and the potential minefield this creates for latter-day researchers.
The No.114 Squadron ORB (AIR27/882) records six crews were sent to Plivot for operations with No.139 Squadron on 14 May 1940. The same source shows one machine (R3703 – a No.53 Squadron machine?) returning damaged after a morning recce and three more aircraft (L9464 , N6230, & P4827) being lost during the afternoon attack on troop concentrations between Givonne and Bouillon, with L9466 (another No.53 Squadron machine?) returning damaged from the same mission. P4827 is recorded as that shot down by Bf109s south-west of Sedan crewed by Sgt BRADY (114), Sgt WILLSHER (114), and LAC MADDOX (139) both Sergeants baling out unhurt near Sauville. CWGC records show LAC MADDOX buried at La Cassine.
The No.139 Squadron ORB (AIR27/958) records that six of their aircraft manned by No.114 Squadron crews took part in an attack on enemy convoys between Sedan and Givonne on 14 May 1940 from which three failed to return. The No.114 Squadron ORB provides the serials N9179 (sic), & P6902 as being two of them with Halley’s RAF Serials also giving N6223 as recorded ‘missing’ by No.139 Squadron on 14 May 1940.
So much for primary sources. Franks in his Valiant Wings (1988) is faithful to the respective Squadron ORBs (though he corrects the more obvious errors) while Chorley’s RAF Bomber Command Losses (1992) offers interesting alternatives with N6223 instead of N6230 (for the NEWBERRY machine) which is itself transposed with P6902 (that flown by the POWER crew). But both authors show P4827 as the BRADY aircraft consistent with details extracted from the No.114 Squadron ORB. Arnaud Gillet’s Rupture Sur La Meuse (2004) mirrors Chorley’s version of events with the additional information that in 1941 the serial number N6230 was apparently found on wreckage at Remilly-Aillicourt confirming the identity of POWER’s machine beyond reasonable dispute. But he too gives P4827 as the aircraft flown by the BRADY crew.
My own interpretation of events as published in BoFrT&N (2007) followed my usual path of trusting the primary sources unless there was good cause to do otherwise. However, on reflection, I accept that I could have given more weight to Gillet’s evidence regarding N6230 being POWER’s aircraft. And photo evidence received post-publication now shows P4827 to be the No.139 Squadron aircraft XD*P later abandoned in France so evidently not that flown by the BRADY crew despite what the ORB says. It would seem, therefore, that N6230 (not P6902) was that flown by the POWER crew, making N6223 (not N6230) that flown by the NEWBERRY crew, and P6902 (not P4827) possibly that flown by the BRADY crew ? P4827 may not have even been involved in the attack on 14 May 1940.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Highly interesting topic

Shows what pressure everone was under those mid May days in 1940.

There is another aircraft which turns up on this date (May 14th) and that is P6920. I don't know what the ORB says about it, but according to Halley it was with 114 Sq and also lost in May. Graham Warner in his Blenheim book says P6920 was lost on the 14th and says P6902 was lost on the 15th (which Halley also says).

Peter
When you say P6902 was lost on the 14th, do you really mean 6902 or 6920?

Cheers
Stig

[Peter Cornwell]

Hello Stig,

P6902 is recorded in the No.114 Squadron ORB (AIR27/882) as the No.139 Squadron aircraft lost on 14 May 1940 with its crew of POWER, STUART-HARRIS, & PARKER (all of 139). I am aware that the aircraft Movement Cards record this serial as missing with No.139 Squadron on the following day as reflected in Halley's RAF Serials (1978) but I am not aware of any sorties flown by either No.114 or No.139 Squadrons on that date.

P6920, on the other hand, was allocated to No.114 Squadron and simply recorded as 'Lost in France in May 1940'. According to the ORB (AIR27/882) it flew an early morning reconnaissance between Montcornet - Rumigny - Aubigny on 16 May 1940 piloted by F/L MAUDE so it survived at least that long. It may well have been among the surviving squadron aircraft transferred to No.18 Squadron when No.114 Squadron finally evacuated Vraux on 18 May 1940 ?

[dave gaydon]

Good morning
Peter thank you for your comments I really appreciate your time and thoughts on this matter.

kindest regards David.