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  #51  
Old 3rd January 2020, 21:43
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

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Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
Stephen Bungay's book "Alamein" has some sceptical comments on Marseille — piling up scores against fighters while ignoring the bombers devastating Panzerarmee Afrika. But that's what you get when you promote the ethos of the duelling warrior-hero …
Usaaf did just that. Killing every fighter, even leaving the bombers. I do not see much difference. Marseille did it quite well and a fighter down is one less for the rest to worrie about. Can i ask what Bungay's point is?
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  #52  
Old 3rd January 2020, 22:28
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Ignoring the bombers that really inflict the damage on ground forces, tanks etc - like Hartmann. Not a war-winning approach. Hartmann only made around 15 Il-2 claims..far fewer than other Eastern Front aces..
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  #53  
Old 3rd January 2020, 22:48
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

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Usaaf did just that. Killing every fighter, even leaving the bombers. I do not see much difference. Marseille did it quite well and a fighter down is one less for the rest to worrie about. Can i ask what Bungay's point is?
1. I see a big difference: (a) the USAAF in the ETO and MTO faced no significant threat from German day bombers; (b) it was the job of USAAF escorts to destroy fighters so that US strategic bombers could bomb their targets. US ground forces in the field could be defended by the Tactical Air Forces.

2. So, in North Africa you shoot down a RAF fighters (which the RAF can afford to lose) while the RAF bombers slaughter your ground troops and burn out your supply dumps (which you really cannot afford to lose).

3. Bungay's point is that in pursuing individual glory through a series of duels the Luftwaffe fighters failed to counter the main air threat to German forces in North Africa.
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  #54  
Old 3rd January 2020, 23:13
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

I would note that Bungay's point was first made by Chris Shores back in 1969 in Fighters Over the Desert.

Enjoy!

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  #55  
Old 3rd January 2020, 23:17
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Loss details of 5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP Yak-9, S/N: 2515338 on October 27, 1944 on Debrecen airfield:

This day early morning 8 Bf 109 and 6 Fw 190 were strafing the Debrecen airfield in Eastern-Hungary. The attack immediately damaged 4 Yak-1s (on readiness) and killed, or wounded several personnel, including Yak-9 pilot, Ml.Lt. Alexandr Pavlovich Kutuzov, who later died of his wounds. His plane, Yak-9, S/N: 2515338 burned on the ground. It was written off by November 2, 1944.

The attack also destroyed 3 Po-2 night-bomber biplanes of 5 VA, 312 NBAD, 930 NBAP (S/N: 127107, 167109, 8257) and damaged 7 others. From 451 ShAP 2 IL-2, from 18 TAP (training unit) another 3 planes were damaged on the ground. From the fighters (on readiness) only one Yak-1B could take off, without any significant result, the others were completely supressed by the surprise attack. The other lost 513 IAP Yak-1B on the ground was No.20150 - without the pilot.

Only one 5 VA Yak-3 (Knut, 150 GvIAP, S/N: 3929212, ‘39’ - in dogfight) and a La-5FN (Gukov, 192 IAP, S/N: 39213433, ‘33’ - due to flak) was lost in the air this day, but none of them was related to Hartmann’s claim.

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  #56  
Old 3rd January 2020, 23:38
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

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Originally Posted by Frank Olynyk View Post
I would note that Bungay's point was first made by Chris Shores back in 1969 in Fighters Over the Desert.

Enjoy!

Frank.
Duly cited in Bungay's end notes for the passages concerned.
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  #57  
Old 4th January 2020, 00:22
Andrei Demjanko Andrei Demjanko is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

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Stephen Bungay's book "Alamein" has some sceptical comments on Marseille — piling up scores against fighters while ignoring the bombers devastating Panzerarmee Afrika.
But it were RAF fighter-bombers, not a few light bombers (how many of them, a couple of Wings by the summer of 1942?), who inflicted most of the damage to Axis ground troops in daylight hours
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  #58  
Old 4th January 2020, 04:21
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Of course, there were fighter bombers in Africa but they also performed purely fighter duties, not dedicated 'Jabo' units. Also a number of bombers operated, Marylands, Baltimores, Blenheims or Bostons.
In general, Luftwaffe had a major problem in preventing Allied operations. There were few successes, but in general targets were bombed without any problems but weather. Of course, Allied strategy, rotation of aircrew as well as lack of targets prevented massive scores by Allied pilots. Plenty of them simply had no chance to see enemy aircraft or just like R. S. Johnson or Gabreski were to be send home after achieving 28 kills. Judging by the score of J. Johnson of 34+7 - 3 - 10 for a total of 54 victories, this becomes quite close to the results of top German aces in the ETO. Most of the pilots had no such chance, however.
Anyway, we are drifting away from the main topic - Hartmann's score.
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  #59  
Old 4th January 2020, 08:51
Andrei Demjanko Andrei Demjanko is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

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Of course, there were fighter bombers in Africa but they also performed purely fighter duties, not dedicated 'Jabo' units.
They flew more bomber sorties and dropped more bombs than light bombers (in daylight). I'm not discarding contribution of light bombers and only pointing out, that "[someone] piled up scores against fighters for glory and thus prevented Germany from winning WW2" statement is wrong at its core
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Last edited by Andrei Demjanko; 4th January 2020 at 09:28. Reason: Added text
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  #60  
Old 4th January 2020, 10:05
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

I know this is my answer to everything, but I recommend reading the DEFE 3 series ULTRA (it’s all online) for, say, July to November 1942. You will find numerous reports of the damage inflicted by bombing on troops and supplies. The night bombing of Tobruk and other ports did, on occasion, inflict massive damage and the Axis supply situation was on a knife-edge throughout the period. There was talk of getting JG 27 pilots to fly at night in defence of the ports but that went nowhere. You will also find much about the critical loss of the tanker Tergestea off Tobruk, in the opening stages of Second Alamein. She was bombed and torpedoed within sight of shore and in daylight. The Navy complained that fighter escort would have prevented this (a couple of LG 1 Ju 88s were assigned instead).

On the other hand, the HW 5 series ULTRA (not online) includes regular updates on the latest scores of JG 27’s pilots and their cumulative totals. It is also clear just how much the Germans had invested in Marseille’s prowess, presumably as an inspiring example to others.
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