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Old 13th June 2009, 03:23
mjbollinger mjbollinger is offline
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I./KG 40

Hi everyone,

Is there any evidence that I./KG 40 ever deployed operationally its He 177A-3 and A-5 aircraft with the Hs 293, particularly around the time of D-Day? I've not come across any -- but want to make sure.

(Yes, I know that II./KG 40 and III./KG 40 were so equipped, though the latter did not deploy these against the Normandy invasion.)

Thanks!

MB
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Old 13th June 2009, 08:13
RT RT is offline
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Re: I./KG 40

In ultra you found a lot of evidence, but more around july nd august, at that time they did'nt anything else than guided weapons

Remi
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Old 13th June 2009, 11:56
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: I./KG 40

K report 261/1944 in respect of the loss of He177 F8+IH shot down 0335 hrs off Caen on 11-6-44 says '' Started from Bordeaux/Merignac at about 0130 hrs with 2 HS 293 Glider bombs and six to eight flares, to attack concentrations of Allied shippiing off the Beash-head ''.
The reports also notes only 1st and 2nd. Staffeln were involved in these attacks ( 3rd. Staffel in Norway with Fw200 ? ).
1st and 2/KG40 had around 12 losses involving crewmen killed/injured or missing in the June to July period against shipping.
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Old 13th June 2009, 17:44
mjbollinger mjbollinger is offline
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Re: I./KG 40

Thanks Brian et. al.,

How reliable are these K reports. I've yet to come across other indications of I./KG 40 being equipped with Hs 293 -- though that of course does not rule it out. And on the date in question, 1./KG 40 was not operating from Bordeaux-Merignac but Orleans-Bricy. Could this be a case of mistaken identify and the aircraft here really from 4./KG 40? One aircraft from that unit was also shot down that night.

As for the accounts of 1./KG 40 and 2./KG 40 being involved in attacks, I can certainly accept that given the available evidence. Does the report say specifically they were engaged in missions with Hs 293 weapons?

Thanks,

MB
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Old 13th June 2009, 18:17
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: I./KG 40

The 'K' reports are of course subject to a POW telling a fib. I think one of the classics was the Bodenplatte JG54 pilot who said he flown the attack with the Einsatz staffel of JG104 and this was written into several books before the truth came out.

To return to I/KG40 K 258/1944 in respect of F8+MH on 8-6-44 says T/O from Orleans/Bricy carrying 2X2500kg bombs under the wings to attack shipping off LeHarve (see base change in K 261 )
K 259/1944 in respect of F8+DH on 10-11-44 started from Bordeaux with 2x HS glider bombs to attack shipping off the Beach-head.
K 261 for 11-6-44 already covered but adds '' It has since been established that for the attack on the beach-head on the night of the 7th/8th June the starting point was BORDEAUV/Merignac and not OLEANS/BRICY.
K 354 in respect of F8+MK on 5-7-44 Started from Orleans/Bricy at 2300hrs(4th) with two HS293 Glider Bombs to attack shipping in the Bais de la Seine.

Hope this Helps

Brian Bines
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Old 13th June 2009, 21:09
mjbollinger mjbollinger is offline
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Re: I./KG 40

Brian,

Very helpful. Thanks.

Marty
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Old 14th June 2009, 16:18
mjbollinger mjbollinger is offline
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Re: I./KG 40

One more quick followup--

With respect to the K report 261/1944 regarding F8+IH, it is possible this aircraft was in fact F8+JH (Ofw Konopek) from 1./KG 40? Just wondering if the I and J could have been confused, or if in fact both aircraft were shot down that evening.

Thanks

MB
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Old 14th June 2009, 17:38
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: I./KG 40

Hi Marty,

Yes you are right looks like F8+IH on the K but on checking the NVM it is Konopek in F8+JH,

Brian Bines
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Old 14th June 2009, 18:22
RT RT is offline
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Re: I./KG 40

No difference between I nd J in the Lwf
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Old 14th June 2009, 19:02
mjbollinger mjbollinger is offline
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Re: I./KG 40

Great -- that helps things.

Ok, so one last time. When I look at all of the evidence, I can assemble the following documented losses from KG 40 over Normandy -- cases where I can identify aircraft markings, Wk Nr, and/or pilot name. Most seem pretty certain, a couple are probable.

June 6-7 -- I./KG 40: 4 aircraft lost and II./KG 40: 2 aircraft lost
June 7-8 -- I./KG 40: 1 lost and II./KG 40: 1 lost
June 9-10 -- I./KG 40: 2 lost and II./KG 40: 1 lost
June 10-11 -- I./KG 40: 2 lost and II./KG 40: 3 lost
June 12-13 -- I./KG 40: 1 lost and II./KG 40: 1 lost
June 13-14 -- II./KG 40: 5 lost
July 4-5 -- II./KG 40: 4 lost

That's a total of 10 for I./KG 40 and 17 for II./KG 40. Now to reconcile...

I've read that I./KG 40 lost 11 aircraft during operations over Normandy. That's close to the bottom up talley. But I've also read (e.g., Griehl/Dressel) that II./KG 40 lost 13 of 26 aircraft on the night of June 6-7 and another 7 aircraft on the night of June 7-8.

I guess there could be cases where an aircraft was lost without an ADI(k) NVM report being filed, presumably (from what I understand) if all crewmembers returned safely. But the disparity from II./KG 40 -- 20 aircraft vs. 3 -- seems unresonable.

Does anyone know the origin of the account that 13 of 26 II./KG 40 aircraft were lost on the first night and 7 of 13 aircraft were lost on the second? Is in fact that really a talley for all of KG 40 and all of the invasion period? Any clarification would be appreciated.

MB
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