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  #11  
Old 29th July 2017, 05:22
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Hello Leonard,

thanks for that interesting breakdown.
For my birthday my wife endowed me with Barrett Tillman's "Wildcat Aces of World War 2" (1995).
He Mr. Tillman explicitly writes:
  • US Marine F4Fs (11 Squadrons) 562 victories
  • US Navy F4Fs (28 Squadrons) 520,5 victories
  • US Navy FMs (38 Squadrons) 432 victories
In his article "The Wilder Wildcat" (2014) the same author indicates 422 victories for the FM-2 which would imply 10 FM-1 kills, wouldn't it ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael
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  #12  
Old 30th July 2017, 06:26
R Leonard R Leonard is offline
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

No offense, but it looks like you are trying to back into a result.

Better to look at FM-1s in terms of exposure to combat operations and any credited results there from.

There were two squadrons equipped with FM-1s that made it to a combat zone of which I am aware, VC-39 aboard USS Liscome Bay and VC-33 aboard USS Coral Sea.

Liscome Bay departed San Diego on 21 October 1943 and after a stop at Pearl Harbor participated in operations in the Gilberts until sunk by a Japanese submarine on 24 November. There were no, say again no, enemy aircraft credited to VC-39 during this period. Fourteen VC-39 officers were lost with the ship.

Coral Sea departed San Diego on 9 September 1943 and after the obligatory stop at Pearl Harbor also participated in operations in the Gilberts. On release from the operation. Coral Sea returned to Pearl Harbor and from thence on to San Diego, arriving on 14 December 1943. There were no enemy aircraft credited to VC-33 during this period and a quick check of the combat report show the FM-1s were utilized for CAP (no contacts) and for strafing enemy ground positions.

Supposedly VC-33/Coral Sea embarked new aircraft while on the west coast, but I can find the squadron still operating a complement FM1s, FM-2s, and F4F-4s as late as 18 April 1943 in the BuAer Aircraft Location Report with a change-over to FM-2s showing up sometime around 25 April 1942. So, as one looks deeper, we can find that on 6 April 1943, LTJG Robert Nicholls Glasgow of VF-33 was credited with shooting down a G4M. BUT, and it is a big one, the Aircraft Action Report clearly identifies the aircraft flown by LTJG Glasgow as an FM-2. An interesting line in the report reads, “. . . The enemy did not jettison gas or bombs, probably mistaking FM2 for F4F.” See note below regarding the timing of the Aircraft Location Reports. Glasgow was killed on 14 October 1958 in a crash while a member of the Blue Angels.

So, still not a credit for the FM-1.

So, just working the numbers does not always lead to the correct answer. Your 10 aircraft difference in the total credits for the types is not particularly unusual and certainly is not indicative of FM-1 credits.

Sources:

BuAer Aircraft Locations reports from 31 May 1943, when FM-1s first start appearing in squadron inventories through 18 April 1943 when FM-1s no longer appear in the inventories of combat type squadrons. BuAer Aircraft Location reports were published on a weekly basis and provide the complements of combat type squadrons and their support activities. There are a couple of things to remember when using these . . . 1 – the reports are forwarded to and compiled at BuAer so a report dated, say, 14 August 1943, is really showing the complement anywhere from five to four days before; something to keep in mind. 2 – Someone in early 1942 was being overly security conscious so what you see in the reports up through the summer of 1942 is not exactly accurate, and in some cases wildly inaccurate. This problem smooths out after that, my guess is that someone realized that the good guys were the ones reading the report and they needed to know what was going on.

VC-33 Aircraft Action Report #1, 20-21 November 1943

VC-33 Aircraft Action Report #3, 6 April 1944

Action Report USS Liscome Bay (CVE-56) 16 December 1943

Olynky, Frank J., USN Credits for the Destruction of Enemy Aircraft in Air-to-Air Combat World War2 (1982)

Barrett’s Wildcat Aces of World War 2 is another nice treatment of Wildcat esoterica. If you look at the F4F Profile # 14 on page 43 . . . that’s my father’s airplane (at least in my copy). I have the panel you can see below and forward of the canopy with the VF-11 squadron insignia. He also appears on page 11, fourth from left, front row, in the picture of the aviators of VF-42 aboard Yorktown (CV-5).



A rainy Saturday, good for nosing around in old records.


Regards,


Rich

Last edited by R Leonard; 30th July 2017 at 13:13.
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  #13  
Old 30th July 2017, 13:14
R Leonard R Leonard is offline
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Don't know how I did that. Thanks for the extra eyes, duly corrected.
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Old 30th July 2017, 14:09
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

The only USN FM-1 claim that I am aware of is by Lt(jg) Harold Gordon Hyde, of VC-6, for a damaged Do-217D on December 22, 1943 at 1130, location 6 m, 152 deg from 46-50N, 17-50W.

The Fleet Air Arm has claims for 12 and two half shares with the Wildcat V (FM-1) according to my files. The half shares are with the Wildcat IV.

Enjoy!

Frank.
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  #15  
Old 2nd August 2017, 21:12
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Good evening Gentlemen,

according to Barrett Tillman's publication "The Wilder Wildcat" the F4F-3/4 scored 905 kills which is 177,5 kills less than the tally for the USN+USMC F4F's given in "Wildcat Aces of World War 2".
Does that mean that F4F subtypes other than the F4F-3 and the F4F-4 scored 177,5 kills ?

Cheers,

Michael
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  #16  
Old 2nd August 2017, 23:04
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Michael,
The only other subtypes of the F4F that saw combat was the F4F-3A and the F4F-7 (photo recon), in the USN. You should probably look at his various publications to see when they were published, and check for comments on sources and conditions on the data. Like, is he including all USN/USMC/FAA claims, or is there a date limit on the numbers. Etc.

Enjoy!

Frank.
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  #17  
Old 4th August 2017, 01:12
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Good evening Frank,

"The Wilder Wildcat" was indeed published 19 years after "Wildcat Aces of World War 2".
Is there such a thing like a complete compilation of USN/USMC victories analogous to the USAAF victory lists ?
Rich mentioned a book by you about the USN credits.

Have a nice Friday,

Michael
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  #18  
Old 4th August 2017, 08:36
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

For one of his books on the Wildcat Barrett used the 1946 publication "Naval Aviation Combat Statistics, WW2". It can be found online, and can be purchased on CD. He has also used my Victory Lists.

From 1981 to 1998 I published ten Victory Lists, covering all US air-to-air claims (dest/prob/dam) in the 20th Century, plus two RAF lists.
1: USMC; 2: USN; 3: USAAF/Pacific; 4: USAAF/AVG CBI; 5: USAAF ETO; 6: USAAF MTO; 7: RAF 400 Series Squadrons; 8: RAF 300 Series Squadrons; 9: US WW1; 10: US Post WW2. These are now all out of print, and frequently command stupid prices from Internet dealers. My intention is to update and bring them back into print, probably around the time the Mediterranean Air War series is wrapped. The two RAF volumes will not be reprinted, but I plan several volumes covering the RAF and associated air forces. And some other new volumes.

I also published in 1995 a book on the American aces, based on my Victory Lists.

I continue to gather information and research other aerial combat subjects of interest to me, which I hope to publish eventually.

Enjoy!

Frank.
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  #19  
Old 4th August 2017, 18:49
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Franks' victories lists

For those not familiar with Frank's lists they are the sine qua non of such things and need to be in the collections of any researcher.

I'm delighted that he plans to republish them as I missed several!
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  #20  
Old 4th August 2017, 20:05
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Re: Wildcat (Grumman F4F/General Motors FM-1) victories

Yes, I would be happy to be one of the first buyers of the re-issues.

Michael
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