Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 19th August 2019, 17:51
Falcon's Avatar
Falcon Falcon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Deutschland / Berlin
Posts: 379
Falcon
Question Bf 109 V25

Hello Messerschmitt friends,


is there anyone who got original documents about the Bf 109 V25 for verification of the printed after war books?


- The registration D-IVKC in combination with the notice Bf 109 V25 on a document, as example.
Or the WNr. 1930 / 5605 together with the registration or the V25.

- Documents that give informations about the tests with the V25. Currently is known, that it was possible used to test the "Ringölkühler".


- Dates for the test period. I guess, it was at the beginning of the Bf 109 F development.
(Possible January - April 1939, because the on the photo visible Me 209 V2 in the background was lost on 04.04.1939)


- This photo in better and sharp quality.
https://me109.info/display.php?a=e&l=en&fid=2991


The background... A good friend is drawing a non profit colour profile, also for my website. We try to get all informations to draw it so exactly as possible. Currently are only two photos known, nearly made from the same position on the same day. :-(


All additional informations are welcome. Thanks for your help.


David / Falcon
__________________
Falcon's Messerschmitt Bf 109 Hangar
- + > https://me109.info < + -
The picture archive of the most produced fighter plane of the world.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 9th September 2019, 20:43
Falcon's Avatar
Falcon Falcon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Deutschland / Berlin
Posts: 379
Falcon
Re: Bf 109 V25

OK, no additional informations for this special topic. :-(


Here is the current final version of the profile.


https://me109.info/display.php?a=e&l=en&fid=16924
__________________
Falcon's Messerschmitt Bf 109 Hangar
- + > https://me109.info < + -
The picture archive of the most produced fighter plane of the world.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10th September 2019, 17:20
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,111
Stig Jarlevik is on a distinguished road
Re: Bf 109 V25

No answer David, but I feel it is unlikely the WNr was 5605.

I think that number stems from someone reading the 1993 book where Prien/Rodeike lists three F-protypes V21, V23-V24 as WNr 5602, 5603 and 5604, thus making the V25 5605.

I have no idea why Prien/Rodeike believed these Versuchs aircraft were taken from Messerschmitt's first F-production batch. Mind you they never mention the V25 and somebody else made that conclusion.

Radinger/Schick in 1997 in their final appendix states what they feel to be the correct WNr for all the early versions , unfortunately quoting the same WNr for both the V25 and V26, the latter probably WNr 1931.

So based on these two books and that it is highly unlikely that the production batch beginning with 5601 had already begun in 1939 I would say WNr 1930 is much more believable

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10th September 2019, 19:41
Rottler Rottler is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ludwigshafen, Germany
Posts: 651
Rottler is on a distinguished road
Re: Bf 109 V25

Hello Stig,

according to Radinger/Schick "Bf 109 A bis 109 E" pages 85-87 the Bf 109 V26 was the Bf 109 E-3 WNr. 1361 CA+NK, used as a test aircraft/Erprobungsträger.
In the book "Bf 109 A bis 109 E" are listed the test aircraft
V 21 WNr. 1770 D-IFKQ
V 22 WNr. 1800 D-IRRQ, conversion to F-1
V 23 WNr. 1801 D-ISHN, test aircraft for F version
V 24 WNr. 1929 D-ITDH.
In the following book "Bf 109 F bis 109 K" page 8 these entries are corrected:
V 21 WNr. 5602 D-IFKQ, later CE+BN
V 22 WNr. 1800 D-IRRQ, later CE+BO
V 23 WNr. 5603 CE+BP
V 24 WNr. 5604 VK+AB.

According to Peter Schmoll "Die Messerschmitt-Werke im Zweiten Weltkrieg" the WNr. 5605 was one of 16 Bf 109 F-0 (5605-5611 VK+AC – VK+AI, 5612-5620 PH+IA – PH+II).

Regards
Leo
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10th September 2019, 20:03
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,111
Stig Jarlevik is on a distinguished road
Re: Bf 109 V25

Thanks Leo

I only looked at page 136 of Radinger/Schick's book Bf 109 A-E from 1997.
I don't have their later? book about F - K, but it is interesting they now turn the prototypes back to what Prien/Rodeike already said in 1993.

How do they explain the peculiar phenomena that they say the V25 had a BAL date of 4 March 1939 (A-E book) when their V21, V23, V24 had not yet been built? (F-K book). Or do they subscribe to the theory that D-ICVK was not the V25 at all? Or did Messerschmitt begin a really slow production line where 5601 - 5605 took close to two years to build?

More confusing than I thought....

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10th September 2019, 23:59
Steve Coates Steve Coates is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Dorset England
Posts: 313
Steve Coates is on a distinguished road
Re: Bf 109 V25

V23 = W.Nr. 1801
V24 = W.Nr. 1929

According to what I'd best describe as a V-Muster sheet issued with LP18. I don't have RL3 reference to hand I'm afraid.

V15 is 1773 according to same document.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11th September 2019, 00:17
Rasmussen Rasmussen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lower Saxony, Germany
Posts: 638
Rasmussen is on a distinguished road
Re: Bf 109 V25

from flight logs...

without V-designation:
CE+BG, W.Nr.1801 (flight log Baur)
CE+BO, W.Nr.5602 (flight log Kühnle + Baur)
CE+BP, W.Nr.5603 (flight log Baur + Schmid + Beauvais)
VK+AB, W.Nr.5604 /flight log Baur + Schmid)
D-IVKC, W.Nr.1930 (flight log Wurster)

with V-designation:
D-IRRQ, W.Nr.1800 (flight log Beauvais) called V 22
CE+BG, W.Nr.1801 (flight log Schmid) called V 23
CE+BP, W.Nr.5603 (flight log Kühnle) called V 23
D-ITDH, W.Nr. not mentioned (flight log Beauvais) called V 24
VK+AB, W.Nr.5604 (flight log Beauvais + Kühnle) called V 24
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11th September 2019, 11:22
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,111
Stig Jarlevik is on a distinguished road
Re: Bf 109 V25

Thanks Rasmussen

Can someone please state exactly when the first production Bf 109 F 5601 - 5605 rolled off the production line? Are there any dates in your Flugbücher Rasmussen?

This is becoming very interesting....

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11th September 2019, 12:28
Merlin Merlin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 536
Merlin is on a distinguished road
Re: Bf 109 V25

The secret behind is, that the V-numbers 20 to 26 were used twice due to unknown reasons.
The first batch was based on Bf 109E and C airframes and the second batch on Bf 109F airframes.
My table below presents their WNr., registrations and first appearance in documents:

E V20 1779 D-ICZH 10.38
C V21 1770 D-IFKQ KB+II 08.39
E V22 1800 D-IRRQ 01.39
E V23 1801 D-ISHN CE+BG 02.39
E V24 1929 D-ITDH CE+BH 03.39
E V25 1930 D-IVKC NB+NG 09.39
E V26 1361 CA+NK 07.40

F V21 5601 CE+BN 07.40
F V22 5602 CE+BO 01.40
F V23 5603 CE+BP 02.40
F V24 5604 VK+AB 07.40
F V25 nothing found
F V26 5605 VK+AC 04.40
__________________
Best regards
Gerhard Stemmer
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11th September 2019, 12:47
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,111
Stig Jarlevik is on a distinguished road
Re: Bf 109 V25

Thanks Gerhard

A highly appreciated input. Unusual but in the end a rational explanation to this mystery.

I hope David is pleased as well!

Thanks again Gerhard!!

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Late war Bf 109 pictures source Marc-André Haldimann Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 951 3rd September 2019 22:47
The Bf 109 losses in Spanish Civil War: verified and unverified GuerraCivil Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation 11 15th January 2015 17:19
Schleissheim 1945 pictures Marc-André Haldimann Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 15 11th February 2012 18:58
Losses - III./JG76 in October 1944 Andre Stewart Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 10 14th October 2009 10:06
Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942 Kari Lumppio Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 18 19th February 2009 11:24


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net