Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East

Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East Please use this forum to discuss the Air War in the Far East.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 13th August 2019, 12:26
Jukka Juutinen Jukka Juutinen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 896
Jukka Juutinen is an unknown quantity at this point
Japanese pilot opinions on the J2M

In Aeroplane issue July 2019 there was an article on the J2M. The article was a fine example of the low quality of the current Aeroplane for it was far less detailed than the J2M article published in Air International /Air Enthusiast some 40 years ago! At the end of the article there was the usual claim that Japanese pilots considered it heavy and ponderous. Yet, neither does this article nor any other source (in English) claiming that provide any solid evidence, i.e. pilots' names and their actual personal accounts.
__________________
"No man, no problem." Josef Stalin possibly said...:-)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 23rd August 2019, 06:07
Ryann1k2j Ryann1k2j is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 3
Ryann1k2j is on a distinguished road
Re: Japanese pilot opinions on the J2M

In Saburo Sakai's "Samurai", he* writes, "It was well suited to bomber attack but, like the Shiden, demanded high skill from its pilots. The overemphasis on speed and armament made the plane logy in aerobatics. Compared to the Zero in this respect, it flew like a truck. We suffered appalling losses in training. Later, when the Hellcats and Mustangs roamed over Japan proper, those pilots in Raidens who opposed the enemy fighters discovered all too late the airplane's inability to maneuver."

Later, "Where the Raiden shone against the B-29, it was helpless before the swifter, more maneuverable Mustang", and, in giving a pocket description of Sadaaki (Teimei) Akamatsu he writes "Akamatsu shot down no less than ten of these excellent enemy planes [F6F & P-51] while flying the Raiden, a feat most other pilots considered to be impossible."


*He or Martin Caidin,who had a heavy hand in the eventual translation.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 24th August 2019, 15:09
Jukka Juutinen Jukka Juutinen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 896
Jukka Juutinen is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Japanese pilot opinions on the J2M

Hmm, Allied test report describes it as easy to fly with good turning aided by Fowler flaps. So I wonder how reliable are Sakai's comments.
__________________
"No man, no problem." Josef Stalin possibly said...:-)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 25th August 2019, 23:46
JBL1177 JBL1177 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 16
JBL1177 is on a distinguished road
Re: Japanese pilot opinions on the J2M

It is absolutely necessary to be careful with portions of Caiden's "Samurai" because of his ignorance of Japanese technical vocabulary and his editorial additions. For example, Caiden initiated the confusion over the type of USN carrier planes Sakai attacked on 7 August 1942 and which wounded him. Caiden didn't understand that the term "kanbaku" (carrier bomber) meant dive bomber, while "kanko" (carrier attack plane) was torpedo bomber. Sakai wrote that he attacked kanbaku, actually SBD Dauntless dive bombers, which Caiden wrongly assumed were TBF Avenger torpedo planes. There was never any confusion in Japan. For example the motion picture on Sakai depicted his opponents as SBDs.

Best wishes,
John
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 26th August 2019, 11:43
Graham Boak Graham Boak is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lancashire, UK
Posts: 1,542
Graham Boak is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Japanese pilot opinions on the J2M

It had a higher wing loading that the Zero and other similar Japanese fighters, so cannot help but have lower manoeuvrability. It is entirely a matter of what you are used to - most Allied fighters (particularly US and carrier types) had similar wing loadings so it would seem unremarkable to pilots used to these types. Sakai's comments are entirely reliable when viewed with this in mind. If Sakai had ever had to fight with the Raiden he would have learned to make use of its superior power.

I suspect that much the same background will have affected his judgement of the Shiden.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 26th August 2019, 12:00
Jukka Juutinen Jukka Juutinen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 896
Jukka Juutinen is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Japanese pilot opinions on the J2M

Graham, shouldn't manoeuvrability be considered as a combination of rates of turn and roll? Sakai's account also claims that the P-51 was more manoeuvrable. Was it? Probably the P-51 rolled faster, but very likely the J2M turned better, especially with its Fowler flaps deployed.
__________________
"No man, no problem." Josef Stalin possibly said...:-)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 26th August 2019, 17:18
Graham Boak Graham Boak is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lancashire, UK
Posts: 1,542
Graham Boak is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Japanese pilot opinions on the J2M

Manoeuvrability is difficult to pin down. Peak values of turn rates and roll rates are valuable guides, but also the rates of onset matter. Pitch rate as well.

I've no opinion of P-51 vs Raiden in particular, but suspect that Sakai had little experience of the P-51.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 26th August 2019, 17:34
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,179
Frank Olynyk is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Japanese pilot opinions on the J2M

I strongly suspect that we need a new, honest, translation of Sakai's book Ozora no Samurai (Samurai of the Skies). Strangely enough I have a number of copies of his book, because when I picked them up the English translation of the titles were all different (Truth of the Zero Fighter, The Fate of the Zero Fighter, Last Moment of the Zero Fighter, Saburo Sakai air combat record, To the End of the (top) mortal combat samurai sky without regret it). I compared the characters at the beginning of each book (I do not read Japanese), and they were all different. But I assume these are just slightly different editions of his book. Can anyone comment on these different versions?

Enjoy!

Frank.
__________________
Civilization is the most fragile ecology of all.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 26th August 2019, 20:54
twocee twocee is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 164
twocee is on a distinguished road
Re: Japanese pilot opinions on the J2M

Another comment on the Raiden is to be found in Chapter 25 of the Okumiya/Horikoshi book "Zero". The latter is quoted as follows:

"Soon after its introduction to combat we cut back the production of the Raiden interceptor plane; despite our plans that the fighter should replace the Zero, it suffered from poor pilot visibility and lacked the flight endurance necessary for Pacific operations."

This last point, short range, is also mentioned in the Allied pilot's report quoted in the July 1971 Air Enthusiast article. Another criticism was the lack of manoeuvrability at high speed caused by the heavy ailerons.

These shortcomings would not have prejudiced its use as a homeland bomber interceptor.
__________________
George Kernahan
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 26th August 2019, 22:27
Jukka Juutinen Jukka Juutinen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 896
Jukka Juutinen is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Japanese pilot opinions on the J2M

That report, iirc, mentions heavy ailerons above 350 mph. A6M ailerons were very heavy well below that.

Short range on internal fuel indeed, but drop tanks were available. Regarding pilot visibility, I recall the TAIU report rated it very good.
__________________
"No man, no problem." Josef Stalin possibly said...:-)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RAF raid on Gdynia, 18/19 Dec 1944 alkali Allied and Soviet Air Forces 9 5th January 2012 07:06
RAF losses and kills tmoj2000 Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 3rd March 2011 14:55
Update:107 Plane crash in WWII, 30 km around of Heidelberg Area Part 1 Klaus Deschner Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 1st June 2010 01:07
Help identify japanese pilot Hiroshi Kasai - attack Pearl Harbour Adriano Baumgartner Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East 6 31st July 2007 17:18


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net