Re NAGr.13 let me start a new thread

[RT]

The good way taken by Andreas to build-up the losses for 1944 IS FOR SURE the good way, just as to show how the things are easy for that period, I try to compare what I hv nd what say the Sum's,

Stab/N.A.Gr.13:
17.06.1944 1 aircraft, missing due to enemy action (Pilot, non-officer rank, KIA)
19.06.1944 1 aircraft, missing due to enemy action (Pilot, officer rank, KIA)

I don’t found any losses for the Stab

1./N.A.Gr.13:
17.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy (Pilot, non-officer rank, MIA)
17.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy (No personnel injury)
17.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged withouth enemy action on non-operational flight (No personnel injury)
24.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged on the ground by gunfire from enemy aircraft (No personnel injury)27.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged withouth enemy action on operational flight (No personnel injury)
28.06.1944 1 aircraft, missing due to enemy action (Pilot, officer rank, MIA)
28.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy (No personnel injury)

7 6 44 1 NAGr,13 F X A F BF109G-6 161117 this one was reported on force-return for 8 june, but was not in the return of the 7.th
10 6 44 1 NAGr,13 Normandien A F BF109G-6
17 6 44 1 NAGr,13 Chartres b,/Chartres O, A F verbrannt BF109G-5 110012 We5 100 x Kahle karl-heinz ltn f
17 6 44 1 NAGr,13 Orne Mündung /Vire X BF109G-6 161429 Sw4 100 x Geißler wolfgang uf f
18 6 44 1 NAGr,13 Caen raum nord, Sées BF109G-6 162172 100 x Fischer konrad ltn f
27 6 44 1 NAGr,13 F Chartres FP BR BF109G-6 162071 Schw, besch, unv, Hader ofw f 19h50 MW50 Abgegeben an Industrie HW5 515
28 6 44 1 NAGr,13 Caen nord, X BF109G-6 162067 RW+DP/We8 100 x Weimer heinrich ltn f
2./N.A.Gr.13:
03.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed withouth enemy action on operational flight (No personnel injury)
03.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed withouth enemy action on operational flight (Pilot, non-officer rank, WIA)
14.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, not observed by enemy (Pilot, officer rank, KIA)
29.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, not observed by enemy (Pilot, non-officer rank, MIA)


3 6 44 2 NAGr,13 Lavandon 5 km N, X BF109G-6 411379 x Weil uf f
14 6 44 2 NAGr,13 Ajaccio raum A see FW190A-3 130340 100 x Erhard walter oblt f
29 6 44 2 NAGr,13 Nice süd, 5 km über See X FW190A-4 145656 100 x Stockburger wilhelm ofw f
Trully match this time

3./N.A.Gr.13:
05.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged withouth enemy action on operational flight (No personnel injury)
12.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy (Pilot, officer rank, KIA)
27.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged withouth enemy action on operational flight (No personnel injury)
29.06.1944 1 aircraft, destroyed withouth enemy action on non-operational flight (Pilot, officer rank, KIA)
29.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged withouth enemy action on non-operational flight (Pilot, non-officer rank, WIA)
29.06.1944 1 aircraft, damaged by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, not observed by enemy (No personnel injury)


4 6 44 3 NAGr,13 Flers FP N verorien BF109G-8 710073 Ge2 35 unv, Minner eduard ltn f 11h40 Fliegt n, od aus St Nazaire
6 6 44 3 NAGr,13 X Luftangriff BF109G 710064 100 Date given by the force-report
6 6 44 3 NAGr,13 X N F BF109G 710067 30 Date given by the force-report
9 6 44 3 NAGr,13 Laval verm, N BF109G-6 710067 Besch, Werkstatt Laval HW5 515
12 6 44 3 NAGr,13 Domfront-dompierre/Chamsecret la petite chauviere-La Chemiere S, A LFK P51 x8 BF109G-8 710023 100 x Minner alf-eduard ltn f
12 6 44 3 NAGr,13 X A LFK P51 x8 BF109G-8 710033 100 HW5 515
15 6 44 3 NAGr,13 Bayeux sud, A FJ P47x6 getroffen a, 0 m steig zu 100 m z, FSA BF109G 710091 100 unv, Bärwolf adalbert ltn f FSA zgk ADI/k 373+HW5 515
24 6 44 3 NAGr,13 Vire raum BF109G-8 710071 x Stingl franz uf f
27 6 44 3 NAGr,13 X Tiefangriff P51x 10 i, Halle verbrannt FI156C-3 1367 100 Bericht Datum HW5 515
27 6 44 3 NAGr,13 X Tiefangriff P51x 10 i, Halle verbrannt BF109G-8 710064 100 Bericht Datum HW5 515
27 6 44 3 NAGr,13 Sablé X BF109G-6 162066 100 x Kühle ludwig uf f
27 6 44 3 NAGr,13 Angers FP BA MSCH BF109G-6 161369 Ge8 Zelle 8+Mot, 40 % 17h25 HW5 515

Remi

[ouidjat]

Good...
Just a point:
"6 6 44 3 NAGr,13 X Luftangriff BF109G 710064 100 Date given by the force-report"
and ...
"27 6 44 3 NAGr,13 X Tiefangriff P51x 10 i, Halle verbrannt BF109G-8 710064 100 Bericht Datum HW5 515"
At least we know it's a G-8! Already said you it's like chinese for me but 100 for 100%?
Franck.
PS: Au moins un qui suit dans la salle.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, Remi

Stab/N.A.Gr.13
Are there no NVM's for the Stab/N.A.Gr.13 for the relevant dates?

1./N.A.Gr.13
07.06.1944 You refer to Bf 109 WNr 161117 being gone from the strength return. This does not directly imply a loss in my opinion, looking at the 'Bestand and Bewegungsmeldung' for the unit in June 1944 we see that they at one point transferred at least one Bf 109G-5 and two Bf 109G-6 out of the unit for overhaul. Wnr 161117 could have been one of those.

10.06.1944 Could you explain what this entry really mean?

Rest of the entries more or less match in my opinion, taking into account for example that an update might have been posted with regards to personnel injuries at a point AFTER the summary report was made.

I will try to enter these losses into the database and post the results for your approval.

2./N.A.Gr.13
Matches very nicely

3./N.A.Gr.13

Seems that WNr 710067 is referenced twice on different dates very close to each other. Could you explain what your sources are and how the information was presented?

It is also possible that the aircraft you have on 4.6.1944 was really lost on 5.6.1944, and that the date was updated later (as we see numerous times), as you seem to have no loss on the 5th?

I think that the two aircraft you have on the 12th is one and the same, only that one of the references got one digit of the WNr wrong.

Could you please check the dates for the aircraft you have listed for June 27th? Strange that the total for my losses listed on 27th and 29th is the same as yours for 27th, and you have none for the 29th.

Regards,
Andreas B

[RT]

Stab/N.A.Gr.13
Are there no NVM's for the Stab/N.A.Gr.13 for the relevant dates?


Maybe there are but I don’t hv them…




1./N.A.Gr.13
07.06.1944 You refer to Bf 109 WNr 161117 being gone from the strength return. This does not directly imply a loss in my opinion, looking at the 'Bestand and Bewegungsmeldung' for the unit in June 1944 we see that they at one point transferred at least one Bf 109G-5 and two Bf 109G-6 out of the unit for overhaul. Wnr 161117 could have been one of those.
The two G-6 transferred were 200044+710044 from 1. to 3.NAGr.13
On the report of the 8. june evening the 161117 is given as shot-down in action, as not reported on 6.june date of loss is 7. or 8. June





10.06.1944 Could you explain what this entry really mean?

Plane BF109G-6 shot down by enemy in Normandy on 10.june no other details , but explicitly GIVEN AS LOST AT ENNEMY





Rest of the entries more or less match in my opinion, taking into account for example that an update might have been posted with regards to personnel injuries at a point AFTER the summary report was made.

I will try to enter these losses into the database and post the results for your approval.

2./N.A.Gr.13
Matches very nicely

3./N.A.Gr.13

Seems that WNr 710067 is referenced twice on different dates very close to each other. Could you explain what your sources are and how the information was presented?
It is also possible that the aircraft you have on 4.6.1944 was really lost on 5.6.1944, and that the date was updated later (as we see numerous times), as you seem to have no loss on the 5th?

I could send you the doc, explicitily given on report of 6.june as crash-landed after being shot-up by enemy for sure could be your loss of the 5.june, you are right the second entry the same plane but given by workshop quite one month later




I think that the two aircraft you have on the 12th is one and the same, only that one of the references got one digit of the WNr wrong.


2 Planes Explicitly given as lost to P51 ON 12TH , both Wn are documented with NAGr.13 in may 44





Could you please check the dates for the aircraft you have listed for June 27th? Strange that the total for my losses listed on 27th and 29th is the same as yours for 27th, and you have none for the 29th.



FI156C-3 1367
BF109G-8 710064
The date of the loss very very unclear but prior 28.th for sure, report date !
162071 is wrong date is 27.July name Rühle, to blame the site giving the losses on Normandy
So probably the only good entry concerning the date is the Wn 161369