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  #11  
Old 22nd December 2010, 18:57
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Mirek, one explanation for using SD2 bombs only was that the goal was to disable as much as possible of the Soviet aircraft, but not the airbases themselves, as German planned to use them in the next days.

Jim (theelm), Reiner has already answered tour point. For this crew, the death place is roughly the same, the variation being more the different ways the data was inserted into the Volksbund database or the original file.

By the way thanks to Reiner to have posted additional details.
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  #12  
Old 22nd December 2010, 20:58
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

To Laurent: I know exacly about the effect of SD 2, it was terrific, if the blow was near plane, peoples make many holes, but anyway one SC 250 or SC 500 in the runway had made nice and deep and width big hole, and it was not so easy to take off. This is the point.

When Ju 88 took 720 SD in fact it was 1440 kg of bomb load, could be enough for the low level attack. It is usless to take aditional bombs.

My story was edited in Poland 5 years ago in "Militaria i Fakty" part I and II, and it is only in Polish.
"Barbarossa Victims", many destroyed on the ground Soviet planes (such about 300-400 b&w phoots. It was edited in 100% English version, by MMP books,

Regards,
mirekw

PS
May someone have exacte time of morning mission done by III/KG 51:

7. Staffel?
8. Staffel?
9. Staffel?

Could be interesting maching losses with Soviet claimes?
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  #13  
Old 22nd December 2010, 23:06
Reiner Reiner is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Exakte Abflugzeiten der Staffeln kann ich nicht nennen, da ich keine Flugbuchauszüge besitze. Dazu müsste man das KTB der III./K.G.51 einsehen. Es soll im Militärarchiv Freiburg vorhanden sein.
Aus dem Tagebucheintrag Lt.Poppenburg vom 22.6.1941 geht hervor, dass zuerst die 7.Staffel mit der Rotte Hptm.Zeep und Lt.Kielhorn als erste um 3.15Uhr startete. Als zweite Rotte startete Fw.Müller und Lt.Poppenburg.Die 8. und 9.Staffel folgend. Abstand der Rotten 5 Minuten. Müller und Poppenburg giffen den Flugplatz Stryj an. Die Flugzeuge griffen ihre Ziele in der Rotte an, weil sie dadurch beweglicher waren. Jede einzelne Rotte hatte ein eigenes Ziel.
My story was edited in Poland 5 years ago in "Militaria i Fakty" part I and II, and it is only in Polish.- Welche Nummer? Kann man dieses Heft noch bekommen? Vielleicht eine Kopie? Ich habe polnische Freunde, die mir übersetzen können.

Rene
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  #14  
Old 23rd December 2010, 13:48
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Hi

If the attacks were versus Stryj, so it possible that they attacked 62. SzAP, Soviets on I-153s had claimed two rammings over there against bombers. There was second regiment (one IAP) too but not yet got fighters (some unofficial could be there too?, but I do not have any info about this, but it is possible).

It is also possible, that they attacked Drohobycz airfiled too (???), which is not so far from Stryj. It was base of 10. IAP where were Jak-1s, and I-153 too.


The story was edited 5 and 6 years ago, in the magazine, which is not already edited Militaria i Fakty (last issue summer 2009).

Just now I am going to edit in Poland a book about this subject only Polish too, and used some information from these articles giving many new fact ect. It will be 3 times more then articles.

The price for one issue was 29,00 zlp, which is now about 7,0-7,2 Euro, without shipment. It was not standard article, but rahter small monography (vol. II 16 pages, vol. I 10 1/2, and the begining 17 pages).

It is not easy job with translation, it is long story indeed.

The photos of bombing with SD 2 one I-153 is in vol. 2, p. 17.


1) The Day of Armagedon. To Beat the Red Blizkrieg. 22 VI 1941 Smashing Stalin’s Military Aviation vol. 2. Dzień Armagedonu - uprzedzenie „Czerwonego Blizkriegu”. 22 czerwca 1941 r. rozbicie wojsk lotniczych Stalina, cz. II, p. 14 + 2 color pages with 8 colors (I-16 2 x typ 5, 1x typ 10, 1xUTI-4, 3 x I-153, 1 x I-15 bis), 21 b&w photos, [in:] Militaria i Fakty 1 (26)/2005 (I 2005).
2) The Day of Armagedon. To Beat the Red Blizkrieg. 22 VI 1941 Smashing Stalin’s Military Aviation vol. 1. Dzień Armagedonu - uprzedzenie „Czerwonego Blizkriegu”. 22 czerwca 1941 r. rozbicie wojsk lotniczych Stalina, cz. I, p. 10 ½, 13 b&w photos, [in:] Militaria i Fakty 4 (25)/2004.
3) Red Blizkrieg. Stalin’s Invasion on German in July 1941. Czerwony Blitzkrieg. Inwazja Stalina na Niemcy w lipcu 1941 r., p. 17, 29 b&w photos, 2 maps, [in:] Militaria i Fakty 2 (23)/2004.

Regards,
mirekw
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  #15  
Old 26th December 2010, 16:23
Reiner Reiner is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Hallo Mirek!

Frohe Weihnachten,auch an alle, die diesen Beitrag lesen.
Ist es ok, wenn ich in deutscher Sprache schreibe?

Die Besatzungen der 7./K.G.51 hatten am 22.6.41 um 01.00Uhr im Geschäftszimmerder Staffel die Flugbesprechung mit Zieleinweisung. Das Ziel der Rotte Müller-Poppenburg war der Flugplatz Stryj. Poppenburg schreibt dazu:"...Unser Ziel der Flugplatz Stryj. Hier sollen ein Haufen Schlachtflieger stehen. ich blicke auf die Karte. Stryj ist ein kleines Städtchen am Rande der Karpaten an dem gleichnamigen Flüsschen, das in den Dnjestr fließt, von Lezany rund 200km, das heisst etwa 180km tief in Feindgebiet. Wir bekommen das Zielbild des Platzes, der unmittelbar neben der Stadt liegt. Der Platz hat sogar Hallen. Im Süden ist ein kleines Wäldchen. Von hier aus soll der angriff im Tiefstflug erfolgen. Um den Platz nicht zu verfehlen , müssen wir etwas höher anfliegen...."
Auf dem Rückflug wurde die Rotte von einer einzelnen "Rata" angegriffen, die aber abgewehrt wurde. Müller kam mit einem Motor in Lezany an. Poppenburg`s Ju88 hatte lediglich drei Treffer von Fla-MG. Nach dem ersten Einsatz waren von der 7.Staffel nur noch zwei Ju88 einsatzklar. Die 9K+GR mit Poppenburg und die 9K+BR mit Ofw.Drechsler. Beide Maschinen flogen beim zweiten Einsatz bewaffnete Aufklärung mit dem Ziel, belegte russische Flugplätze im Raum der ersten Angriffe zu bekämpfen. Sie finden eine Flugplatz, von dem gerade Jäger aufsteigen und greifen ihn an. Danach wird die Rotte getrennt und von mehreren Jägern angegriffen. Poppenburgs Flugzeug bekam rund 40 Treffer ab, einer ließ die Kühlflüssigkeit eines Motors auslaufen. Ein Jäger wurde durch seinen Bordfunker abgeschossen. Dann Bauchlandung in Lezany. Drechslers Maschine landete ebenfalls mit Bruch, 15 min. früher, weil ein Reifen zerschossen wurde.

Im Buch "Wir flogen mit dem Edelweiss" von Friedrich Aufdemkamp, beschreibt der Autor, dass er als Angehöriger der 6.(II.)/K.G.51 am Morgen des 22.6.1941 mit Start 03.45Uhr ebenfalls den Flugplatz Stryj angriff.

Irgendwo hatte ich mal gelesen, das es die Plätze Stryj 1 bis 3 gab. Ist da was dran?

Gruß, Rene
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  #16  
Old 27th December 2010, 16:22
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

If it was Stryj, so it could be there Jak-1 too?
If concern me such German I can undrestand, but others I do not know?

As on 1.06.41 there were no Jak-1 in 62. SzAP only 72 I-153 and I-15. The second regiment was 165. IAP, which had only I-16, I-153, I-15bis (as on 1.06.41 too).

Two other regiments where were Jak-1s: 20. IAP (Sambor, Krasiłow) and 92. IAP (Drohobycz, Tiranowka).

So it was very strange for me to see on one photo Jak-1 made over Stryj, he should not be there, if the attack was in fact on Stryj airfield, wrong plane - fighter in wrong regiment - assult, but during transfer could landed there too, or was for 165. IAP or for other fighter units this division.

I do not hear about more then one airfiled near Stryj like no 1 to 3 (?). Could be strange. It is possible that there were made some false airfiled, which should be constructed this months? If it was this, so it fits.

Planes of 62. SzAP were on: Stryj and next airfield it was Lisiatycze. There are only two airfiled of this regiment, nothing more. It was assoult regiment, no fighter, so the planes were not disperced in different locations.
In some cases fighter regiments had own zwienos, escadrilas in aditional a few ambush airfileds, but it was near the border line. 63. SAD was much deeper into Soviet territory.

Regards,
mw
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  #17  
Old 28th December 2010, 12:59
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Reading the post about attack of III/KG 51, I have just realised, that this unit had changed its flight structure.
Mostly bombers had flown in basic formation of 3 planes: like Ju 87, He 111, Ju 88, Do 17 filghts/staffel etc.

This tactic had been changed during adaptation of III/KG 51 to the assoult/destroyers role. They began attack early in the morning in formation of 2-planes (Rotte) instead of bombers 3 planes formation.
There were also one case, when one Ju 88 had attack Soviet airfiled early in the morning destroying 7 of 10 I-16 of 87. IAP.

A few hours later, they attacked attack some airfileds in bigger formation.


Second: Ju 88 A-5 of III/KG 51 had used SD 2 bombs, there were two cases (Ju 88 and Do 17 Z) in Luftflotte 2 of self-explosion of them during normal flying due to construction problems with their containers.
Maybe some losses of Ju 88 in III/KG 51 were sustained due to same reason?
Is there any information about such accidents? SD 2 were for a while not used due to these explosions in summer 1941.

Regards,
mw
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  #18  
Old 28th December 2010, 13:45
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Reiner:

Please make your posts in English. This is an English-speaking forum unless you are quoting from an original document of the time.
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  #19  
Old 29th December 2010, 00:54
thenelm thenelm is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Reiner, I posted what I have, which is from the Gen.Qu. losses. I stated an observation based on the locations of the deceased as posted by Laurent. I certainly would agree that they were all located with a kilometer or 2 of each other, on the other hand I have no particular knowledge of the geography of the old Soviet Union as it was in WWII other than from maps as published by Mr. Prien and other publications. Those only seem to point out locations of major cities or bases, not small towns, villages or hamlets. I can only post information that I have available to me - I'm always open to being corrected.
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  #20  
Old 29th December 2010, 09:33
Reiner Reiner is offline
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Re: Losses of KG 51 on 22.06.41

Hallo thenelm



You mean the crew Oblt. Böhm or all K.G.51 losses?
I have my realizations from the original NVM of the III. /K.G.51(22.6.1941) and copys from investigation reports to the MIA crews.

Rene
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