A ?? RE: an ace pilot's description of a dogfight:

[NickM]

Guys:

Yet ANOTHER walk down memory lane...

I am PRETTY sure the description I am asking about is from one of Edward Sims' books & the LW Experte is G-P Eder;
in his dogfight he was leading either a VERY reduced strength staffel or an overstrength schwarm of FW190s; anyways he describes being part of gefectverband of over 200 aircraft that attacks a bomber stream & then 'over 200' P47s dive to intercept THEM; he shoots down ONE B17 and then a P47 that overshoots him-he states the P47 loses a wing; then another group of P47s mixes it up in a furball with his flight but loses two & downs one LW fighter before Eder(?) disengages & dives away;


The thing that interests me is what/when it happened; Eder's account states that he had 20mm AND 30mm guns on his FW...when did the JW start using 30mm cannon on their FWs---I am ASSUMING these are Mk108s in the wings rather than in gunpods----and what allied units were actually involved in this dogfight & what their losses were;

TiA


nickm

[George Hopp]

Peter Rodeike in his book on the Fw fighters says that the 109 G-6/U4 first used the 30mm MK 108 in June 1943, and the Fw 190 A-7 began using it in combat in early 1944.

[drgondog]

Nick - the first observation is that for his statement of "200 P-47s attacking' to be even remotely plausible it means that for some reason four Fighter Groups happend to be in exactly that 1 cubic mile of space, and ALL left the bomber escort duties to attack the LW.

Second, only 4 to 5 P-47 Groups would be involved in trying to provide inbound Penetration Escort (or Withdrawal scort) for 800-1200 bombers. The RAF also provided escort to coast - but nowhere close to Germany.

So, it simply is unreasonable to assume that any attacking force of US P-47s in Oct 1943 through Feb 25, 1944 would number more than 48-50 in one local area.. after that period the odds were less because the LW Avoided Penetration and Withdrawal Support, seeking holes in thin Mustang and Lightning Target Escort from German Border all the way in and back.

The 8th AF never had more than 9 P-47 groups (4th,56th, 78th, 352nd, 353rd, 355th, 356th, 359th and 361st)through January, 1944 and steadily declined after the 4th and 355th converted to Mustangs in Feb/March 1944 - followed quickly by the 352nd in April, then the 359th and 361st in mid May... so only four P-47 Groups remained in mid May, 1944.

Of course some 9th AF Jug Groups occasionally provided escort in Dec 1943-Mar 1944 so there were occasional days of greater strength on Penetration and Withdrawal Support.

Simply didn't happen. Which Sim's account do you believe Eder was referring to and when

[George Hopp]

The imagination runs wild when you are unexpectedly attacked from above, so I would pare the US numbers down by a factor of about ten. That said, I would tend to think they were being bounced by no more than a single group of aircraft -- perhaps P-47s and maybe not, depending on the time frame. As you said, drgondog, there were never that many US fighters covering any one part of the bomber stream. Later there would be several groups flying ahead of the bombers to break up any assembling German fighter formations, but even then, I would think they would only send down single groups of fighters to attack smaller German formations.

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Nick

If the guy indeed was Eder, could this episode have happened on 29 April 1944, which appears to be the only day that Eder claimed both a B-17 four-engined bomber (41) as well as a P-47 fighter (42)? The time frame would be about right for him to be flying a Fw 190 A-7/R2 or A-8/R2 although was not he flying his Fw 190 A-8 "Yellow 4" (W.Nr. 170 071) on that day which was a lightened version?

Horrido!

Leo

[NickM]

Guys:

OOOPS! I found the quote in one of my sources (Boiten's & Bowman's 'Battles With the Luftwaffe') & it seems I overstated things slightly; apparently Eder said there were 200 fighters AND 200 bombers with an unstated number of P47s doing high escort; Furthermore the date in question was July 14 1943--Eder was flying with 7/JG2. Now the report DOES mention his fighter having both "twenties" and "thirties"---So I am REALLY at a loss as to what he was flying. However, at least I was right about his shooting down a B17 and a P47....

TiA

nickm

[drgondog]

In July 1943 there were Two P-47 Groups to escort ALL the 8th AF BC bombers. This is before the 1st Schweinfurt and Regensburg missions of Aug 17, 1943,

[NickM]

Originally Posted by drgondog

In July 1943 there were Two P-47 Groups to escort ALL the 8th AF BC bombers. This is before the 1st Schweinfurt and Regensburg missions of Aug 17, 1943,

Yes, back before the P47s had finally resolved what the best way to escort the heavies was...Did another check of my favorite source & on this day WF Galland claimed THREE P47s as well---the 4th FG lost one & the 78th FG lost two as well as three other P47s either being scrapped, crash landing or abandoned/ditched;

I'm still curious about Eder's comments about his 'crate' having multiple 20mm & 30mm cannons though---I reckon it can ONLY be an FW but who knows---I thought 1943 was too early for FWs to carry 30mm guns;

nm

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Nick

If the date was 14 July 1943 then Eder at the time was Staffelkapitän of 12./JG 2 which was a Bf 109 G-4 and G-6 equipped unit. Wood's lists has him credited with two B-17 four-engined bombers, one as an e.V., that day. Rather confusing as it is my understanding that the Bf 109 G-6/U4 was first delivered to JG 11 on 14 August 1943.

Horrido!

Leo

[Jochen Prien]

Gentlemen,

if the date - July 14th, 1943, 65 years ago today - was correct, then Georg Eder as Staffelkapitän of the Messerschmitt-equipped 12./JG 2 would have been in action with a Bf 109 G-6 with a 2 cm MG 151/20 as central weapon.

The first Bf 109 G-6/U4 with an MK 108 as central weapon were delivered to II./JG 11 at the end of July 1943 from E-Stelle Tarnewitz, where the first MK 108s were fitted into Bf 109 G-6 between June and October of 1943, before WNF was finally able to deliver MK 108-equipped G-6/U4 a/c. For further details see JFV 10/II, p. 27 pp.

II./JG 2 in France took over its first five Bf 109 G-6/U4 only in October 1943.

So, unless JG 2 had some makeshift / home-made conversion at their disposal ( which I do not believe ) I cannot see what type of a/c Georg Eder was flying that day that would have been equipped with 30 mm weapons.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Jochen Prien