Amazing Russian Ace?

[John Beaman]

I’m not sure where to post this, so I’ll start in this forum.


I DO NOT want to start a flame war with this posting, just a discussion, with gentlemanly disagreements, if any. So, be cool!

I just finished reading Osprey’s #56, LaGG and Lachovin Aces of WWII by George Mellinger. Now, my knowledge of Russian Aces is limited to the usual, mass-market English language publications, so I apologize if this is an “old” question. However, I was stunned to see the author write of a pilot, Arkadii Sukov, who he says is credited with shooting down Otto-Bruno Lorzer (47 vic), Max-Helmut Ostermann (102 vic. RKT), Herbert Findeisen (67 vic.), Hans-Joachim Heyer (54 vic. RKT), Heinrich Wefers (52 vic.), and Han-Joachim Kroshinski (76 vic. RKT) over the course of a 3-year career.


Is this true? If so, it must be the most extraordinary record of any “Allied” Ace of WWII. The author says the German pilots shot down by Sukov had an aggregate total of 397 victories and 4 RKTs between them. Interestingly, neither Stalin’s Eagles or Stalin’s Falcons has a record of this man. I know they are alleged not to be that creditable, but surely they would not leave out this guy!?

[Jim P.]

I think this topic has come up before, but I think this claim is somewhat spurious. First off, has anyone ever come across the name 'Bruno Lorzer' for a WW-II LW fighter pilot? There was a Hans-Gunther Lorzer with JG 26 - but then maybe Sukov had a super long range fighter since Wefers was KIA in the West as well. The only other loss incident I have for him was a ground collision. Findeisen survived the war. I haven't any recorded events for him. Oh, and Lorzer doesn't appear on the OKL claims lists compiled by Tony Wood.

[Andy Fletcher]

Hi John,

Like you I doubted the validity of these claims and looked into the matter, without too much difficulty I found that many of the details are incorrect.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=475

Regards

Andy Fletcher

[marsyao]

this is even better http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/dymich.html

[Jim Oxley]

Sadly the quality and reliability of Osprey titles is slipping. Too many 'authors' these days don't seem to do their research.

[John Beaman]

Thanks Guys! I do have the "fun hunting" article series. Andy, somehow I missed the thread you linked! Not paying attention!

[Nikita Egorov]

Greetings!

That is absolute nonsense! Stupid copying from Dymych's article:-(( The only possible German ace shoot down by Sukov is Osterman, but I do hesitate of such possibility, because not only Sukov scored that day in the vicinity of Ilmen lake. In other cases are purely automatic fixing without any background.

Regards.

Originally Posted by John Beaman

I’m not sure where to post this, so I’ll start in this forum.


I DO NOT want to start a flame war with this posting, just a discussion, with gentlemanly disagreements, if any. So, be cool!

I just finished reading Osprey’s #56, LaGG and Lachovin Aces of WWII by George Mellinger. Now, my knowledge of Russian Aces is limited to the usual, mass-market English language publications, so I apologize if this is an “old” question. However, I was stunned to see the author write of a pilot, Arkadii Sukov, who he says is credited with shooting down Otto-Bruno Lorzer (47 vic), Max-Helmut Ostermann (102 vic. RKT), Herbert Findeisen (67 vic.), Hans-Joachim Heyer (54 vic. RKT), Heinrich Wefers (52 vic.), and Han-Joachim Kroshinski (76 vic. RKT) over the course of a 3-year career.


Is this true? If so, it must be the most extraordinary record of any “Allied” Ace of WWII. The author says the German pilots shot down by Sukov had an aggregate total of 397 victories and 4 RKTs between them. Interestingly, neither Stalin’s Eagles or Stalin’s Falcons has a record of this man. I know they are alleged not to be that creditable, but surely they would not leave out this guy!?

[John Beaman]

Thanks Nikita.

Too bad there is, apparently, a lot of bad research out there about the VVS even in these post-Soviet days. Perhaps I'll live long enough to see some good work in English!