In hindsight, who was the top day scorer?

[Juha]

Hello Nick
on Graf on 6 Sept 1943, according to Bishop & Hey, Losses of the US 8th and 9th AFs ETO area – June 1942 – December 1943
B-17F-80-BO 42-30000 UX “Attacked by fighters on the return flight over Northern France…crashed at 1230hrs near Estissac, 12 mls W of Troyes, France.”
Better candidates e.g. B-17F-95-BO 42-30300 BG:C 334BS “Hit by ME109 S of Stuttgart…blew up shortly after the crew had all baled out safely S of Stuttgart.” Or B-17F-100-BO 42-30335 LN:U 350BS “With the No 1 and 3 engines out after fighter attacks, a/c crash landed in the area of Villingen, NW of Donaueschingen in southern Ger…”

HTH
Juha

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by Juha

Hello Nick
on Graf on 6 Sept 1943, according to Bishop & Hey, Losses of the US 8th and 9th AFs ETO area – June 1942 – December 1943
B-17F-80-BO 42-30000 UX “Attacked by fighters on the return flight over Northern France…crashed at 1230hrs near Estissac, 12 mls W of Troyes, France.”
Better candidates e.g. B-17F-95-BO 42-30300 BG:C 334BS “Hit by ME109 S of Stuttgart…blew up shortly after the crew had all baled out safely S of Stuttgart.” Or B-17F-100-BO 42-30335 LN:U 350BS “With the No 1 and 3 engines out after fighter attacks, a/c crash landed in the area of Villingen, NW of Donaueschingen in southern Ger…”

HTH
Juha

Thanks Juha, I will go back and check my copy of Bishop & Hey vol 1

[Nick Hector]

Fritz Tegtmeier

Unconfirmed claim
22.6.41/Ca.0330
I-153 "Tchaika" ("DJ-6")
Kedainiai airfield
Legitimate victory: 61 ShAP. Deputy AE CO St.Lt. V G Andreichenko KIA, whilst Deputy AE CO P I Kamyshnaya and Lt. I T Abramchenko were able to bale out safely
(Kinzinger claimed 2 as well, accounting for the other two losses)

1st Claim
23.6.41/1024
SB-2
312 RAP

2nd and 3rd claim
24.6.41/0544 and 0548
2 x SB-2s
31 SBAP. 6 losses and 2 forcelanded. The crew of Nikolay Ermolayert Samokhin were among those that forcelanded after damage from fighters

4th claim
18.7.41/1354
LaGG-3 ("I-18")
19 IAP. Lt. Inya Krakhmal’ MIA

7th claim
3.9.41/1550
1km N of Krasnogwardeisk
157 IAP. Lt. Kharlamov MIA. One other I-16 was damaged

9th claim
10.6.42/1020
Pe-2
117 ORAE lost gunner Daniil Aleksandrovich Samoylov KIA this date. Was it this engagement? 2 BAP lost crew of Lt. Igor Rozhin failed to return this date

10th claim
22.6.42/1845
MiG-3
(August Mack claimed one as well)
Were these actually LaGG-3s from 92 IAP? Serzhant Iosif Nikolaevich Sinkevich KIA this date

11th claim
22.7.42/1026
Yak-1
Was this St.Serzhant Stepan Stepanovych Akimenko of 124 IAP? KIA in air combat near Krasnogwardeisk this date

12th and 13th claim
5.8.42/1510
2 x MiG-3s
E of the Wolchow river, 45km E of Lyuban – Tschudowo
Were these actually from 195 IAP (flying Hurricanes and P-40s at the time) as they lost Lt. Konstantin Ivanovich Afanasyev KIA this date

18th claim
20.8.42/0620
Yak-1
15km S of Staritza (PQ 47662) @ 1000m
Was this actually claimed against a LaGG-3 of 5 GIAP? Serzhant Aleksandr Pavlovich Urodenko KIA (believe this may have been him)

21st and 22nd claims
5.9.42/1240 and 1245
2 x Yak-1s
SE of Schluesselburg
Day's Fighter losses to JG 54 include Vasilii Ivanovich Chernenko of 5 IAP-KBF, survived. 2 Hurricanes and pilots from 3 GIAP lost and 4 were damaged. 160 IAP lost Apollon Ivanovich Sobolev

25th claim
7.1.43/1130
LaGG-3
20km NNE of Leningrad (PQ 01792) @ 4000m
Was this actually the MiG-3 of 12 KOAE, IABR, KBF? Pilot Kornilov baled out from 4500m over Dubno 1115 Soviet Timing

12.1.43/1422
IL-2 Sturmovik
E of Mga (PQ 10184) @ 200m
57 ShAP, 8 BAD-KBF listed Lt. Aleksandr Semenovich Potapov HSU KIA this date
(MANY claims for IL-2s throughout the day….)

50th claim
10.4.43/1150
LaGG-3 ("Yak-1")
10km S of Lomonosov (PQ 80242) @ 300m
3 GIAP, 61 IABR, KBF. Lt. Vyguzov

51st claim
13.4.43/1757
10km SE of Leningrad (PQ 00163) @ 2000m
13 GBAP, 13 VA. 2 losses. This would include Maj. Yurchenko, navigator of one of the Eskadrilya. Posthumously awarded Gold Star of HSU

55th claim
14.9.43/1151
Yak-9
25km NE of Moschna (PQ 26231) @ 3000m
Was this G I Titarev of 168 IAP, 303 IAD, 1 VA? Definitely shot down around this time. 18 GIAP, 523 IAP and Normandy Niemen group also in action around this time
(Doebele and von Bonin claimed in this engagement as well)

57th and 58th claims
15.9.43/0850 and 1410
2 x Yak-9s
Moschna – Yelnya
149 IAP lost Evgenii Nikolaevich Klimov KIA, possibly to one of these claims

66th claim
9.10.43/0720
Yak-9T ("P-39 Airacobra")
10km E of Nevel (PQ 07772) @ 4500m
Acutally a Yak of 86 GIAP, 240 IAD, 3 VA. Gv.Ml.Lt. Ivan Yakovlevich Zhlobin
(Kurt Pabler claimed as well)

83rd – 87th claims
7.2.44
4 x La-5s
Day's La-5 losses to JG 54 include Vladimir Nikolaevich Arapov of 3 GIAP-KBF KIA. 4 GIAP-KBF list Kapitan Vladimir Mikhailovich Dmitriev and Ml.Lt. Mikhail Fedorovich Serov (2 AE) listed as KIA this date

92nd claim
6.3.44/0755
La-5
25km S of Narva (PQ 80742) @ 4000m
Day's La-5 losses include Kapitan Alexei Mikhailovich Milovanov of 193 IAP WIA and KIA on landing at Rotmistrovka airfield. 254 IAP lost Vasilij Kuzmich Sidorenkov badly damaged W of Novgorod. 3 GIAP had Yuri Petrovich Shorin WIA

96th claim
9.3.44/0908
La-5
SW of Narva (PQ 80573) @ 3500m
4 GIAP-KBF listed St.Lt. Sergei Fedorovich Protasov KIA this date

99th claim
23.3.44/1535
IL-2 Sturmovik
Was this from 7 GShAP? Gv.Ml.Serzhant Vasilii Grigorievich Kuznetsov listed KIA this date

102nd claim
4.4.44/0810
La-5
Day's Fighter losses include Mikhail Machabeli of 10 GIAP-KBF, POW whilst Aleksandr Gerasimovich Baturin was WIA but made it home

104th claim
26.5.44/1850f
La-5
Into the Baltic, 25km from Hungerburg (PQ 70431)
Losses include Nikolay Romanovich Fatov of 10 GIAP, lost in aerial combat this date as was Vladmir Grigorievich Koba of 1 AE, 4 GIAP KIA

112th claim
27.7.44/1555
Tu-2 ("Pe-2")
Mitau (PQ KH-4.6) @ 4000m
334 BAD, three losses. Crew details pending
(versus 3 claims, so legitimate victories)

113th claim
28.7.44/1515
PQ OL-1.3 @ 3500m
65 GIAP. 0632 of Ml Lt Mikishkov, who successfully bailed out in the area of Puttli village and 0920, with Ml Lt Krasnopevtsev, who was killed
(Bruno Tezzele inflicted the other loss)

116th claim
7.8.44/1343
P-39 Airacobra
PQ MK-7.3 @ 3800m
Possibly A.P. Oborin, CO of 438 IAP, KIA

123rd claim
29.8.44/1830
La-7? ("La-5")
PQ LG-1.3 @ 2500m
(Guenther Schack claimed as well)
Believe these two claims were for 63 GIAP, 3 GIAD, 1 GIAK, 3 VA. Mladshiy Leytenanty Bainov and Teleshov, both baled out safely and returned the next day

[Broncazonk]

I am bringing this topic around again to see if there is any movement in finding "the answer"--or at least a better answer.

For whatever reason, I believe correcting the record is important--the history is cherished by young and old literally all over the world--and the history is wrong. (The members of this forum know the "truth" about the official list: Hartmann 352, Barkhorn 301, etc, but the vast majority do not.)

What will it take? A collaboration of the experts on this forum? Funding by an interested benefactor? A publisher willing to be involved?

A problem--THE problem--I think, is Hartmann. His claims were/are sooo unsupportable AND we are at a loss for an explanation as to why. Correcting the record means addressing Hartmann (and the other over-claimers) but this MUST be done in a sensitive and delicate way. (But, what that sensitive, delicate way is, I have no idea, because I can't come up with an explanation that doesn't involve outright fraud.

Still, it must be done...somehow.

Bronc

[Broncazonk]

Is there any evidence, any shred of evidence or even a hint of evidence that over-claiming was officially sanctioned for certain Luftwaffe pilots for press and propaganda purposes?

We have discussed the "boom and zoom" tactics that Hartmann likely utilized as a potential explanation for his over-claiming. He never got slow. He never got low. He never tried to dogfight. He came down at full throttle, made a single pass at an unsuspecting target, and zoomed past and back up to altitude. I don't think he even looked back. And if he saw smoke, a sudden jerk or a sharp dive from his target: that was a victory. Every boom and zoom attack was a victory.

Does this theory have factual, historical support?

Bronc

[VtwinVince]

Interesting thread, and I believe the scores of some Experten certainly need intense review. I can only offer an anecdotal story from my personal research involving my uncle, Major Dr. Albrecht Ochs. He was posted as 'Abschuss-Offizier' to JG27 in 1942 (probably officially Major beim Stabe) and as such had some role in the 4. JG27 fraud involving Sawallisch, Bendert, Stigler et al. I corresponded with Edu Neumann as I had a copy of a Beurteilung about my uncle which states 'vor dem Feind besonders bewaerht', which seems to imply that he flew patrols in the desert. Neumann was very unhelpful with me, to the point of open hostility, and stated that my uncle had been posted out of theatre because he 'wasn't physically able to cope with desert conditions'. His posting out of Africa almost exactly coincided with the apparent suicide of Sawallisch, and since my uncle was in civilian life a lawyer, I think he ran afoul of some covering-up by Neumann and the staff. Also, when I met Stigler here in Canada over the years, he was always very wary around me, I believe due to my family connection to the JG27 scandal. This is also why I have always been very sceptical of the story of the B-17 which Stigler allegedly didn't shoot down and which became a much celebrated media event in the 1990's. Anyway, I know this doesn't involve the 'top scorers', but it does throw light on the difficulties we have in trying to disseminate fact from fiction in the claims made by the Jagdwaffe.

[edwest2]

For what it's worth, I agree that correcting the record is important. And as a researcher with this topic and others,
I have looked for credible information for a long time. For the sake of perspective, it should be brought up that wars are fought by people.
That propaganda existed on all sides. I have read that some material exists in private archives. There was a period where an unidentified buyer
was paying large sums for original photos on eBay. And were it not for researchers here and various publishers, a lot of details would not
be known today. And there are still classified records from the war. Some were declassified at 50 years, some at 70 but others remain.
The US National Archives continues to declassify records on a quarterly basis, but some document descriptions are very vague.

This sort of research is largely a volunteer effort and trips to archives, along with visits with former combatants, are made at personal expense.
An anecdote. A couple of researchers had located the man credited with the highest number of enemy tanks destroyed. They wanted to interview him.
He asked that he be left alone and they left.

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by edwest2

There was a period where an unidentified buyer
was paying large sums for original photos on eBay.

I think you are alluding to 'sudek13', Ed, yes?

[edwest2]

Yes. This was followed by comments about such pictures disappearing forever.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by VtwinVince

. Also, when I met Stigler here in Canada over the years, he was always very wary around me, I believe due to my family connection to the JG27 scandal. This is also why I have always been very sceptical of the story of the B-17 which Stigler allegedly didn't shoot down and which became a much celebrated media event in the 1990's.

A 'muy interesante' comment. Would you be able to 'elaborate' on another thread or perhaps by PM?