Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 24th May 2018, 13:16
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 873
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Points system in the West

Hi Guys
Can any enlightened person inform me of when the "points system" for claims was established in the West(only), and was it officially recognised by any administrative body like the Wiesbaden commission for example.

The number of points required for certain decorations varied over time, and then seems to be only a guideline. Does anybody know if the points required were officially increased?

Grateful for any enlightenment on this matter.

Thanks in advance.

Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 24th May 2018, 13:36
Nick Hector Nick Hector is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 697
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Points system in the West

Has a document explaining this point system ever been found?
I have often wondered if it isn't just a Toliver & Constable construct
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 25th May 2018, 10:12
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 873
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Points system in the West

Hi Nick

Thanks for your comment.

I would guess that something was needed to reward the destruction of the U.S heavy bombers. Twenty "kills" in the West used to warrant a Ritterkreuz award, but twenty "viermots" was exceptional. But I to have never seen anything official, and the book you mention was not on full of typo errors, but also general errors, and I must confess what looks like made-up stories.

Kind Regards

Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 25th May 2018, 10:49
Nick Hector Nick Hector is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 697
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Points system in the West

Well that's just it, Johannes,

That is the earliest source of the Points System that I have ever been able to find and the only other source that I have seen quoting it is John Weal...
...who, as we know, pretty much derives from Toliver and Constable.

One experiment that you could try in order to see if it really is true or not is to take a couple of westfront Experten victory lists (say, Wilhelm-Ferdinand Galland, Adolf Glunz and Johannes Seiffert for starters....) and see if what they claimed genuinely does match the criteria for the point system at the time of their RK award. A margin of error of plus or minus a few points would be perfectly understandable. A total failure to correspond would lend credence to any doubts we have....
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 25th May 2018, 13:12
Andy Mitchell's Avatar
Andy Mitchell Andy Mitchell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Biggin Hill, UK
Posts: 412
Andy Mitchell is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Points system in the West

Nick/Johannes,

Not sure if this helps or hinders but there was an article by someone called Julius R Gaal from the December 1965 issue of Flying Review International discussing whether Luftwaffe aircrew's claims were valid or inflated!
The article "The Luftwaffe's Kills" contains reference to the points system.

The points system is mentioned in para 4 of the section entitled "What are these figures worth". It does not go into great detail as this was not the main thrust of the article.

As usual with articles of this vintage very little in the form of references exist.

Last edited by Andy Mitchell; 25th May 2018 at 13:18. Reason: further comment
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 25th May 2018, 13:22
Nick Hector Nick Hector is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 697
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Points system in the West

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Mitchell View Post
Nick/Johannes,

Not sure if this helps or hinders but there was an article by someone called Julius R Gaal from the December 1965 issue of Flying Review International discussing whether Luftwaffe aircrew's claims were valid or inflated!
The article "The Luftwaffe's Kills" contains reference to the points system.

The points system is mentioned in para 4 of the section entitled "What are these figures worth". It does not go into great detail as this was not the main thrust of the article.

As usual with articles of this vintage very little in the form of references exist.
Hi Andy,

It seems to read very similar to the corresponding passages of Toliver & Constable and certainly dates from a time when there was no real chance for the common man to check victories against losses, so one could either volunteer to take this information as written, or leave it.
It certainly helps to know that this is what the view was in 1965, when the war was very fresh in memory
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 25th May 2018, 13:54
Nick Hector Nick Hector is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 697
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Points system in the West

Putting my money where my mouth is,
Here is my listing of Priller's victory claims matched to Allied Losses if you would like to use it as a model to check against...
(Any additions/corrections very welcome)

Josef Priller’s victims and overclaims


FRENCH CAMPAIGN
1. 28.5.40/1307 Defiant (claimed as a "Spitfire") NW of Dunkirk L6959 of 264 sqn. F/L E H Whitehouse MIA-KIA and P/O H Scott KIA

2. 28.5.40/1307 Defiant (claimed as a "Spitfire") NW of Dunkirk L7007 of 264 sqn. P/O A M MacLeod MIA-KIA and P/O J E Hatfield KIA

3. 2.6.40/2115 Hurricane I (mistaken for a "Curtiss Hawk") SW of Dunkirk L1564 of 111 "Treble One" sqn. P/O R R Wilson baled out safely (also claimed by Fw. Artur Haase, slight overclaiming)

4 and 5. 8.6.40/1905 2 x Blenheims Abbeville Two claims but only one went down: R3709/UX-F of 82 sqn. P/O G P Robertson and Sgt. J Hounston POW, Sgt. B W Burt KIA (overclaiming)

6. 25.6.40/1820 Spitfire I 8 km NW of Desvres No opponent traced. Probably overclaiming

BATTLE OF BRITAIN
7 (NOT LISTED BY SOME SOURCES) 10.7.40/1115 Spitfire I Dover This one said to be L1000/DW-D of 610 "county of Chester" sqn, S/L A T Smith, damaged and crashed on landing at Hawkinge

7. 14.7.40/1625 Hurricane I SE of Dover Overclaiming, only one traceable loss: L1584/KW-G of "A" Flight, 615 sqn. P/O Michael Robert Mudie, rescued from channel, died of burns the following day (Stange, Tietzen and Krieger also claimed it)

8. 20.7.40/1920 Hurricane I 5km E of Folkestone N2670 of 32 sqn. Sub-Lt. Geoffrey Gordon Robson or Robertson Bulmer (FAA) KIA

9. 29.7.40/0840 Spitfire 5km N of Dover 41 sqn: N3038 of F/O Douglas Robert Gamblen KIA, N3100 of F/O W J M Scott crashlanded and N3264 of P/O George H Bennions, N3113 of F/L John Terrance Webster and N3112 of P/O J N MacKenzie also crashlanded WIA (versus 10 other claims by German pilots, so overclaiming as a group in this instance)

10. 14.8.40/1345 Spitfire Folkestone/NW of Dover 65 and 610 "county of Chester" sqns plus 615 sqn Hurricanes. 65 lost R6602 of P/O L L Pyman and R6884 of Sgt. M Keymer both aircraft damaged, pilots unhurt. 610 lost K9947/DW-M of Sgt. B G D Gardner WIA and L1009/DW-B, unidentified pilot. 615 sqn lost F/O Peter Collard, KIA in P3109 and P/O Cecil Robert Montgomery KIA in P3160 plus F/O J R H Gaynor in P3380 (damaged, unhurt)

11. 15.8.40/1615 Hurricane Clacton 1 and 32 sqns. 1 sqn lost P3047 of F/L M H Brown baled out WIA and rescued by a trawler, R4075 of P/O D O M Browne MIA, P3043 of Sgt. M M Shanahan MIA and P3678 of P/O J D Elkington damaged, but later repaired. 32 sqn lost N2459/GZ-C of P/O D H Grice baled out badly burned, N2671 of P/O B Wlasnowolski forcelanded safely, aircraft later repaired.

12. 16.8.40/1335 Spitfire 10km E of Canterbury Possibly L1038 of 64 sqn. Sgt. Jackie Mann slightly WIA, aircraft repairable. Also slight possibility of having been claimed against 266 sqn. Includes R6768 of S/L Rodney L Wilkinson (unit CO) KIA (lost near Deal at 1235 BT. One source says he collided with Ebbighausen), N3095 of P/O N G Bowen KIA (Addisham near Canterbury at 1245 BT) plus P9312 of F/L H S Bazley baled out WIA (over Canterbury at 1245 BT), X4030 of Sgt A W Eade damaged (also over Canterbury, 1240 BT) and K9864 of P/O S F Soden forcelanded WIA

13 and 14. 24.8.40/1355 and 1410. Spitfires E of Margate. I have not been able to trace these two

15. 26.8.40/1857 Spitfire 5km W of Boulogne Doesn’t match any known loss circumstances

16. 7.10.40/1135 Spitfire 20km N of Canterbury Was this Hurricane V6800 of 501 sqn? F/O Nathniel John Merriman Barry KIA over Wrotham at 1040

17 7.10.40/1740 Spitfire Thames Estuary Likely N3039 of 152 sqn. P/O Harold J Akroyd KIA (claimed by at least two other pilots, so overclaiming)

18 and 19. 15.10.40/1310 and 1315 2 x Hurricanes W & SW of Dover Overclaims or misidentifications?

20. 17.10.40/1635 Hurricane Tunbridge Wells Possibly Spitfire II P7360 of 74 sqn. F/O A L Ricalton KIA

TO JG 26, CROSS-CHANNEL FIGHTING
21. 16.6.41/1635 Spitfire W of Boulogne 11 Gp. Appears to be overclaiming, all losses appear to be accounted for

22. 16.6.41/1645 Blenheim IV SW of Boulogne 59 sqn. 2 losses: V6386/TR-G of P/O P P Villa POW but crew all KIA and TR-Y of P/O D E Kennedy and crew all POW (The other was claimed by Pingel)

23. 17.6.41/1942 Hurricane W of Cap Gris Nez 56 and 242 sqns. 56 lost P/O Peter Ethelbert Merrick Robinson, KIA in Z2812. F/L F W Higginson DFM in Z2575 (evaded via Spain) Sgt. Richard Douglas Carvill KIA in Z3329 and P/O P A Harris KIA in Z2664. 242 lost S/L E T Smith in Z3246 (POW). F/L Bruce Arthur Rogers KIA in Z2888 and F/L J Bryks in Z2508 (POW)

24. 21.6.41/1240 Spitfire SW of Ramsgate R7345 of 603 "City of Edinburgh" sqn. F/O D Stewart-Clark, crashlanded on Goodwin Sands WIA

25. 23.6.41/1335 Spitfire S of Somme Estuary This one most likely claimed against P7975 of 485 sqn RNZAF, Sgt. R J Bullen KIA (1302-1430BT) or R6761 of 92 sqn, Sgt. H Bowen-Morris POW (1254-1428). 603 and 609 sqn each had one damaged at this time

26. 25.6.41/1300 Spitfire W of Gravelines 54 sqn and 92 sqn. 54 sqn lost R7259 of W/C J R Kayll DSO DFC POW, W3323 "the new forest" of Sgt. J D Beresford POW and R7222 of P/O K E Knox WIA whilst 92 sqn lost W3264 of P/O T S Wade damaged WIA

27. 27.6.41/1000 Spitfire SW of Gravelines I have not been able to trace this one

28. 30.6.41/1856 Spitfire 10km NW of St. Inglevert Said by Caldwell to have been claimed against 603 "City of Edinburgh" and 616 "South Yorkshire" sqns. No losses traced

29. 2.7.41/1245 Spitfire 10km W of Lille 74, 145, 303 and 308 sqns. 303 lost P8596/V of S/L W Lapkowski VM KV KIA, P8463/T of Sgt. R Gorecki rescued after 74 hours. P8390/U of Sgt. M Wojciechowski WIA suffered cat.2 damage and P8329/P of P/O W Strembosz was written off after overturning as a result of battle-damage. 308 sqn lost P8525 of F/L E S Krawnik KIA and P7536 of Sgt. P Kowalc POW and P7883/E of P/O B Kudriewicz WIA was cat. 2 damaged. 74 lost W3263 of F/O Stanislaw Zygmunt "Danny" Krol POW (murdered after the Great Escape) and W3259 "Makesi" of Sgt. R Evans POW. 145 sqn lost P8536 of Sgt. J G L Robillard evaded via Spain and Gibraltar

30. 4.7.41/1455 Spitfire 10km SW of St. Omer 74 sqn lost W3285 of Sgt. W G Henderson KIA plus one other cat.2 damaged, 609 sqn lost X4664 of P/O A K Ogilvie POW, 603 sqn lost R7339 "Waverley" of F/O Harry A R Prowse POW (near St. Omer) and W3244/H-B of 11 Gp, G/C Harry Broadhurst WIA

31. 5.7.41/1340 Spitfire 4km NW of Dunkirk 54, 308 and 616 "South Yorkshire" sqns: 54 lost R7222 of P/O Kenward Ernest Knox, KIA. 616 lost P8651 "St Helens" (an acknowldged definite JG 26 victim) of F/L Colin Hamilton MacFie, POW and 308 lost P7314 of Sgt S Krzyzagorski WIA, rescued by ASR. 610 sqn had one cat. 2 damaged

32. 7.7.41/1000 Spitfire 3km N of Gravelines Hornchurch Wing. Said to be G/C Harry Broadhurst, made it home in damaged aircraft. Could also have been the 54 sqn Spitfire damaged between 0900 – 1035

33. 7.7.41/1047 Spitfire W of Somme Estuary 54 sqn. Suffered one Spitfire Cat. 2 damaged in these morning combats.

34. 8.7.41/1530 Spitfire 10km N of St. Omer most likely R7269 "Jamshedpur Golmari I" of 54 sqn. P/O G H Batchelor POW but died of bone disease.

35 and 36 9.7.41/1400 and 1410 Aire-Samer-Calais 54 sqn lost R7269 of P/O Bachelor POW and W3169 of P/O N G Baxter KIA. 92 sqn had R7195 of P/O P L I Archer WIA, 145 sqn lost R7309 of Sgt. J K McFarlane KIA. 611 sqn lost W3325 of P/O R A Johnston KIA. 616 sqn lost P8070 of S/L E P P Gibbs evaded via Gibraltar and P8386 of Sgt. R A Morton POW. 92 sqn had 3 Spitfires cat.2 damaged

37 and 38. 10.7.41/1230 2 x Spitfires N of St. Omer, NW of Bolougne 72, 92, 610 and 611 sqns. 72 sqn lost P8600 "Lady Linlithgow" of Sgt. Allan James Casey, W3411 of F/O J M Godlewski and P8604 "Jamshedpur Golmari II" of Sgt. Charles Leslie Harrison all KIA. 92 sqn lost W3403 "the dog's fighter" of Sgt G C Waldern RCAF rescued safely by ASR, 611 sqn lost P8539 of F/S L Hemingway KIA plus three others cat.2 damaged. 610 sqn lost P8523/DW-R "Bansi" of P/O P Ward-Smith POW, P8374/DW-K of Sgt. H C D Blackman KIA and P8520/DW-Q "the Mendip Spitfire" of Sgt. H C D Blackman POW.

39. 11.7.41/1610 Spitfire 20km W of Calais R7208 of 611 "East Lancashire" sqn, Sgt D E Fair RNZAF POW on Circus to Lens or an aircraft from 72, 452 or 485 sqns

40. 14.7.41/1030 Spitfire VB 1km N of Ferques (S of Dunkirk) R7219 of 72 sqn. Sgt W M Lamberton, baled out WIA – POW.

41. 19.7.41/1435 Spitfire VB 5km off Dover 72 sqn. W3181 of 72 Sgt. Raymond Frederick Lewis KIA plus one other cat.2 damaged, pilot safe (other claim was by Heyarts)

42. 22.7.41/1340 Spitfire 10km NW of Gravelines 308 "Torun" sqn. 2 losses: P8313 of F/O W Bozek and P8590 of P/O M M Orzechowski. Both pilots KIA (Dollenmaier claimed the other)

43. 23.7.41/1405 Spitfire 15km NW of Gravelines 306, 308, 54 and 603 sqns. 306 lost P8334/UZ-E of P/O J B Kosmowski KIA, P8461/UZ-R of P/O J K Maras KIA, P8247/UZ-F of F/L W Nowak baled out WIA, rescued and P8465/UZ-P of F/O K Pniak written off and attributed to fuel starvation. 308 apparently had one pilot rescued by ASR after being downed off Hesdin. 54 sqn lost R7268/KL-M "the Swan" of F/O C Cookson KIA and W3437 "Kapstaad II" of P/O Page cat. 2 damaged, pilot safe. 603 lost R7341 of P/O H Blackall RCAF KIA, R7227 of Sgt. W J Jackman POW and W3184 of Sgt. G W Tabor KIA

44. 24.7.41/1445 Spitfire 7km NW of Dunkirk 308, 72 or 92 sqn. 308 lost P8327/ZF-X of P/O W Chciuk POW and P7835/ZF-S of P/O J Zachowski MIA. 72 lost W3316/RN-M "City of Salford", Sgt G F Breckon NZ POW and 92 lost W3381 of Sgt S H Vinter KIA

45. 7.8.41/1130 Spitfire 5km NW of Calais 92, 485 RNZAF, 602 or 611 sqn – I have yet to add details into my database

46. 7.8.41/1820 Spitfire 8km W of Calais 19 and 401 sqns. 19 lost P7924 of P/O Hugh Bruce Milman, KIA and P7771 of Sgt. Stanislaw Plzak, KIA. 401 lost P/O T K Coupland KIA

47. 4.9.41/1730 Spitfire NW of Bethune Lost around this time were W3451 of 111 sqn, Sgt. T R Caldwell rescued safely from channel; W3182 of 72 sqn, Sgt. J E T Asselin POW. 603 sqn had Sgt. Neill WIA, cat.2 damaged

48. 17.9.41/1535 Spitfire 5km S of Calais 54 sqn. Includes: W3772 "Moray" of S/L Newell "Fanny" Orton, AB813 of Sgt J D Draper RCAF and W3109 of Sgt R A Overson all KIA (versus 7 claims…)

49. 18.9.41/1625 Spitfire 5km W of Dungeness AD126 of 41 sqn. Sgt W Palmer ditched off Freeston and rescued by HSL.

50. 1.10.41/1457 Spitfire Mid-Channel 91 "Nigeria" sqn. 2 losses: R7290 of P/O Noel Proctor Warden and W3422 of Sgt. Gerald William Barker. Both KIA. (The other was claimed by Unzeitig)

51. 1.10.41/1534 Spitfire W of Boulogne @ 5000m Is this a PR machine or an overclaim?

52. 12.10.41/1325 Spitfire 5km E of Berck sur Mer 452 and 602 "city of Glasgow" sqns. Overclaiming, only two losses: 452 lost W3520 of Sgt. Keith Brace Chisholm DFM, 602 lost W3623 of Sgt. A E V Meredith. Both men POW (Seifert claimed one and Augustin claimed 2 in this engagement)

53. 13.10.41/1530 Spitfire 15km W of Berck sur Mer The day’s combats are very confusing. Benefit of the doubt…

54 and 55. 21.10.41/1255 and 1305 Spitfire 4km W of Etaples and 15km NNW of Le Touquet Were these the losses suffered by 65 sqn, 129 and 401 sqn in the morning? 65 lost AD267 of Sgt A H Johnson WIA and POW plus W3633 of P/O D C Mitchell rescued from the sea as well as one cat.2 damaged. 129 lost W3893 of Sgt E Tucker (Jamaican) damaged WIA. 401 lost AB863 of Sgt B F Whitson WIA and POW. 485 sqn RNZAF suffered Sgt A G McNeil WIA in W3579 around this time. 315 had one cat.2 damaged. OR: 609 sqn? Lost AD136/K of Sgt A G Palmer DFM KIA off Le Touquet at 1145 BT and W3850 of F/O Victor M M Ortmans DFC POW after being shot down by an Fw190 at 1145 BT plus W3236 of S/L P C Choron was damaged 611 "West Lancashire" sqn. Two losses: W3515 of P/O N J Smith and W3327 "Horsham and District" of P/O J F Reeves both KIA. Was said to have been a collision between the two, but Galland and Fast claimed them anyway

56. 27.10.41/1315 Spitfire 5km N of Watten 401 sqn RCAF other losses were: W3964 of Clarke Wallace "Wally" Floody POW, AB983 "Singkawang" of P/O John Allan Small, AB991 of F/O Clarence Alfred Blake Wallace and W3601 of Sgt Stanley Lewis Thompson all KIA. In addition, W3452 "Midnight Sun" of Sgt G B Whitney was damaged (baled out over Sandwich)

57. 8.11.41/1250 N of Bethune @ 4000m 302 and 316 sqns. Overclaiming, only two losses: 302 lost P/O Z Gutowski. 316 lost S/L W Wilczewski. Both men POW (Galland claimed two and Seifert claimed one in this engagement as well)

58. 8.11.41/1310 Spitfire 3-5km NW of Gravelines @ 10m 452 sqn RAAF. AB842 "The Staffordian" of F/L Keith W "Bluey" Truscott and Sgt. B P Dunstan in P8645. Both baled out and rescued, one other forcelanded with cat.2 damage back at base (Spinner claimed the other)

59. 3.1.42/1538 Hurricane 5km NW of Calais @ 10m Possibly from an ASR flight. I have no further details.

60. 27.3.42/1640 Spitfire 10km W of Ostend AD197 of 313 sqn. P/O Vladimir Michalek KIA.

61. 28.3.42/1850 Spitfire Cap Gris Nez - Cap Blanc Nez 457 sqn RAAF, 485 sqn RNZAF and 602 "City of Glasgow" sqn. 457 lost AB187 of Sgt. D J Bloomfield KIA, Mk VB BL774 of Sgt. J G Edwards KIA near Dieppe, AA928 of Sgt. W Wright damaged, WIA and Sgt. Reilly baled out safely. 485 lost W3649/FV-B of G/C F Victor Beamish DSO DFC AFC KIA 602 lost Mk VB BM148 of Sgt. R Ptacek (Czech) KIA near Calais.

62. 4.4.42/1415 Channel Narrows, Calais-Dover 129 "Mysore" sqn. Underclaiming, two legitimate losses: P/O Richard Edward Bush KIA. BL509 of P/O E Hall damaged, crashed Ramsgate (was obviously not claimed, so this was likely Bush)

63. 12.4.42/1345 Spitfire N of Gravelines Caldwell says 41 sqn. 5 losses: W3852 of F/L W Palmer POW. W3450/H of F/S Edward George Hullett Watts KIA. W3654 of P/O A van Rood (Dutch) POW and BL595 of P/O Bob van der Stok (Dutch) also POW (1 of only 3 to make it back to the UK after the "great escape", attributed to flak) plus also AD477 of P/O F R Cambridge crashlanded at Manston and hospitalised. BUT going by location could it have been one of 616 sqn's losses? AD456 of P/O M Lepel-Cointet (Free French) and P/O E W Strouts both KIA by Fw190s in Gravelines area
Priller had an UNCONFIRMED VICTORY IN THE ABOVE ENGAGEMENT, Bolougne sector, timing unknown

64. 16.4.42/1826 Spitfire 5km N of Calais Likely two claims for AB846 of 118 sqn. Sgt. Costello WIA (the other claim was by Puchinger)

65. 25.4.42/1654 Spitfire 10km W of St. Etienne Damaged around this time was HP-B of 12 Group. W/C Howard Peter "Cowboy" Blatchford WIA cat.B

66 and 67. 27.4.42/1225 and 1230 2 x Spitfires Ardres-Gravelines 65 sqn. 3 losses: W3461 of F/O D F Davies POW; AB401 of P/O Frederick Speed Haslett KIA and BL442 of P/O T G Grantham (Southern Rhodesian?) KIA (3rd was claimed by Naumann)

68. 28.4.42/1200 Spitfire Dunkirk-Gravelines 401 sqn RCAF: 2 losses: BL598 of P/O J A Ferguson POW and AB917 of P/O Gerald Bickle Whitney KIA (the other was claimed by Borris)

69. 1.5.42/1930 Spitfire 5km N of Calais 457 sqn RAAF, 485 sqn RNZAF and 602 sqn. 457 lost BM188 of F/L Harold Leslie North (NZ) KIA and BM251 Sgt. Andrew Francis Peacock KIA. 485 lost BM116, P/O J R Falls POW and 602 lost BM456 of P/O D G Maxwell POW plus BM186 (damaged, written off)

70. 5.5.42/1540 Spitfire 11km SW of Ypres BM261 of 313 sqn. Sgt. Karel Pavlik KIA

71. 9.5.42/1340 Spitfire 3km N of Gravelines 118 and 501 sqns, 118 lost 6, 501 lost 1: 501 lost W3845, P/O Edward William Gillespie (American serving with the RCAF) 118 lost: BL264 of S/L J H B Walker, KIA. AB791 of Sgt. G Shepherd, POW and W3722, Sgt. M B Green, KIA. AR365, Sgt F W Hough RCAF KIA. W3722? P/O Thomas WIA, was written off whilst BL580 of P/O G H Aalpoel was crashlanded at Tangmere, out of fuel.

72. 17.5.42/1133 Spitfire S of Guines-Audembert BL973 of 313 sqn. F/L Stanislav B Fejfar KIA

73. 1.6.42/1345 Spitfire 5km N of Blankenberghe 350 sqn, 3 losses: AB173 of P/O R J L Laumans POW. W3626 of Sgt. L J A Hansez KIA and BL822 of F/S G G A Livyns also KIA (Aistleitner claimed one of the others)

74. 22.6.42/1210 Spitfire 30km N of Gravelines 64 sqn. Overclaiming, made it home.

75. 15.7.42/1538 Spitfire 8km NE of Dover BM296 of 402 sqn RCAF. F/S J C Hughes. Baled out WIA

76. 21.8.42/1110 Spitfire 50km N of Gravelines Possible overclaim, no opponent traced.

77. 29.8.42/1146 Spitfire 15km NW of Cap Gris Nez Three losses: 64 sqn lost BR592 of Sgt. Rogers WIA and landed at Manston, 242 sqn lost AR425 of Sgt. C Meachen KIA and 402 sqn RCAF lost BS195 of Sgt. W A Hayes KIA (versus 5 claims…)

78. 9.10.42/1035 B-17F-20-BO Flying Fortress (somehow listed as a "B-24 Liberator") SW of Roubaix/Wevelghem 41-24510 "Snoozy II" of 367th BS, 306th BG, Capt. John Olsen and Joseph Norman Gates plus 4 others KIA, 2 evaded capture and 1 man POW (Boiten and Bowman). Caldwell says a 93rd BG Liberator (1st of them lost in ETO)

79. 4.12.42/1440 Spitfire 20km E or S of Dover 401 sqn. BS277 of F/S H M Batters KIA and BS536 of P/O J W Fiander WIA (baled out and rescued)

80. 6.12.42/1210 Spitfire 5-6km S of Lille No opponent traced

81. 20.12.42/1201 B-17F-5-BO Flying Fortress Bay of Seine (crashed between Tosny and Bernieres, Les Andes, Normandy) @ 6000-7000m 41-24432/LL-F "Danellen" of 401st BS, 91st BG. 1/Lt. Dan W Corson and 7 others KIA, one man POW (8th & 9th losses say this was LL-E)

82. 20.1.43/1235 Spitfire N of Canterbury @ 3000-4000m 91 "Nigeria" sqn. Overclaiming, only one casualty: BL333 of P/O B Fey, baled out safely and rescued (also claimed by Mietusch)

83. 8.3.43/1415 Spitfire 8km NW of St. Valery-en-Cause/Caux @ 7000-8000m 340 sqn. One loss: BS312/GW-F of S/Chef P R Hubidos KIA (Also claimed by Glunz, yet possibly attributable to oxygen failure according to British sources. Slight overclaiming)

84. 5.4.43/1512 B-17F Flying Fortress 20km W of Ostend @ 7500m 306th BG, four losses. Includes B-17F-65-BO 42-29660, B-17F-50-BO 42-5431 and B-17F-30-BO 42-5072 all of 367th BS. Boiten and Bowman say this was 41-24465 "Lil Abner" of 368th BS, same BG. Lt. Clarence Fisher

85. 4.5.43/1842 Spitfire Westerschelde, NW of Antwerp @ 7000m Three Spitfires lost: AB525 of 316 sqn, F/O T J Legowski POW (by Fw190s); EN567 of 611 "East Lancashire" sqn, F/O V S Neill KIA (believed hit by B-17 gunners). Plus EN131 of 315 sqn. F/L M Lipinsky baled out but died on the way down, attributed to Messerschmitt test-pilot Hans Fay.

86. 13.5.43/1624 B-17F Flying Fortress Amplier, 5km E of Boulogne/12km SSE of Frevent @ 7500m Known to have come from 91st BG. This was probably a claim for 42-5406/OR- of 323rd BS. Lt. Homer C Biggs Jr. and five others KIA, remaining four crewmen all POW (also claimed by 3 pilots from I./JG 27)

87. 13.5.43/1646 Spitfire 5 or 8km NW of Etaples @ 6000m Caldwell says 416 sqn RCAF (which suffered four losses to different causes). This was most likely BR626 of Sgt. F W McKin, ditched in the channel but KIA

88. 16.5.43/1312 P-47 Thunderbolt Scheldt Estuary @ 7000-2000m 78th FG. Includes P-47C-5-RE 41-6318/MX-K of 82nd FS, F/O Charles R Brown POW (name given as Ora Ross Brown Jr by at least one source) plus aircraft of 2/Lt. Andrew M Barba of 84th FS damaged, WIA (four other claims…)

89. 10.6.43/1855 Ventura W of Coxyde 2 Gp. Overclaiming - all made it back home

90. 22.6.43/0932 B-17F Flying Fortress near Terneuzen @ 8000-20m 42-30016 "Irongut Gert" of 532nd BS, 381st BG. Crew of 2/Lt. Earl R Horr, 2 KIA and 8 POW.

91. 26.6.43/1852 B-17F Flying Fortress Dieppe-Le Treport @ 7000m 42-30037/BK-F of 546th BS, 384th BG. 1/Lt. Lyle S Henderson and crew all POW.

92. 17.8.43/1740 B-17F Flying Fortress near Liege/2km NE of Diest (PQ M-7) @ 7000m Could this have been 41-24564/XK-W "Patches" of 365th BS, 305th BG. 2/Lt. Douglas L Mutschler and 6 others POW, remaining 3 crewmen all KIA (came down Averbode, NW of Diest)

93. 19.8.43/1900 B-17F Flying Fortress De Beer Isle (Gilze Rijen a/f)/Middelburg-Vlissingen @ 7000m Some sources say this was 42-29807/WF-O "Liberty Lady" of 364th BS, 305th BG (ex-"Patsy Ann III" of 334th BS, 95th BS). 1/Lt. Ralph R Miller and one other POW, remaining 8 crewmen all KIA (Shared with Gruenlinger, yet actually due to Flak according to US sources)

94. 21.9.43/1045 B-25C Mitchell II N of St. Pol/Hesdin @ 4000m 41-12764/FL683 of 98 sqn, No.2 Gp. F/O Arthur George Gordon Atkins and crew all KIA

95. 20.10.43/1345 B-17F Flying Fortress SE of Arras-Cambrai 42-30372 "Shack Rabbit II" (one source says "Shack Rabbit III") of 339th BS, 96th BG. Crew of 2/Lt. Robert E Grimes 4 KIA, 4 POW and 2 evaded capture.

96. 13.4.44/1415 B-17 Flying Fortress Poperinghe, N of St. Omer/Bourbourg-Watten (PQ NE-36) @ 4-500m Have not traced an opponent for this one yet. Likely a legitimate victory

97. 7.6.44/1350 P-51 Mustang Thaon, NW of Caen (PQ TU-7-8) @ 600m Have not traced an opponent for this one yet.

98. 7.6.44/1900 P-47 Thunderbolt Evreux/Seinebogen (PQ UC-3-6) @ 3500m Have not traced an opponent for this one yet.

99. 11.6.44/1535 NW of Compiegne/Roye (PQ SF-TF) @ 3000m - low altitude 343rd FS, 55th FG. Massive overclaiming, only 2 losses: 42-68102/CV- of Lt. Rex P Hjelm and 43-28388 of Lt. Karl James Goethal both evaded capture (both are generally attributed to Mueller, EIGHT claims in total in this engagement…)

100. 15.6.44/0710 B-24 Liberator W Dreux, SW of Chartres/L'Aigle area (PQ AB-BB) @ 6000-7000m 42-95132 "Mojalajab" of 858th BS, 492nd BG. Lt David McMurray, crew all baled out and returned, Navigator POW. Rest of Crew all KIA a week later.

101. 12.10.44/1125 P-51 Mustang S of Wunsdorf/E of Petershagen (PQ GT-6) @ 6000-7000m. 44-13714/B6-B "Desert Rat" of 363rd FS, 357th FG. Capt. Herschel T Pascoe, POW. Only victory claimed over Germany this date.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 27th May 2018, 11:49
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 873
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Points system in the West

Hi Guys

Seems the punktzahl or points system is a way to reward "viermot experten", from 1943. Basically the old "20 kills" in the west for the Ritterkreuz was suffering inflation, and a "Viermot experten" was really undervalued with one "viermot" as one "kill". As only ten guys confirmed twenty "viermots" I guess you can see the reasoning.

Anyway thanks for all your help.

Best Regards

Johannes
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces Johannes Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 52 2nd November 2017 01:27
Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification Paul Thompson Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 94 20th July 2012 21:24
Performance of the Fw 190A on the Deck? Boomerang Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 173 11th August 2008 09:30
Points system in the LW CJE Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 5th June 2007 22:33
Luftwaffe Points System For Aerial Victories Boomerang Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 3rd December 2006 11:19


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net