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  #11  
Old 8th June 2018, 16:30
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Hi folks,

If you would like to locate in the map the crash sites of Lipfert's victims in Hungary, here is the list of the CORRECT location names for Nick's previous victory list. The German records were full of typos and errors, so here are the names for his victories, you can find by copy-paste in Google:

146: Hosszúpályi
147: Öcsöd (-E,-SE)
150: Újfehértó
151, 152: Büdszentmihály (New name since 1952: Tiszavasvári)
153, 155, 156: Jászberény
158: Atkár
159: Hatvan
160: Csajág
162, 173, 174: Börgönd (Székesfehérvár-S, German city name: Stuhlweißenburg)
164: Seregélyes
167: Bodmér
169: Tarján
171: Bicske
177: Budaörs
179: Adony
183: Soponya
185: Siófok
186: Pákozd
187: Székesfehérvár (German city name: Stuhlweißenburg)
188: Pákozd
189: Lake Velencei (Velencei-tó)
190-191: Székesfehérvár, Várpalota, Gúttamási, Öskü
193: Felsőgalla

Gabor

Last edited by HGabor; 9th June 2018 at 03:41.
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  #12  
Old 8th June 2018, 16:45
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Thanks Gabor, that's outstanding!

...And if anyone can fill more gaps in the listing that would be amazing too
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  #13  
Old 8th June 2018, 17:30
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Dear Gabor, Nick and Kirill,

Sadly the language indeed was and Always will be a problem for most of us. For instance my first published work (biography of Captain Gordon Fox Rule, DFC, CdG* - Brazilian Greatest Ace of the Great War, 1914-18) was written in Portuguese, although there are several foreigners interested in Reading it in English language too.

I was eager to read the PRIEN Series about JG 27 and also am interested on several Works about KG 55, KG 6, KG 66 and JG 77 (an Oberfeldwebel Wilhelm Baumgartner may be a distant relative of mine), all written in GERMAN (Deutsch) language.

Thankfully am able to read in FRENCH and ENGLISH therefore, most of the books I have acquired were on those two languages.

Like most of us, the appearance of Internet allowed us to have a huge access to relatives, to Editors, to new sites (like this one) and a fantastic exchanging of experiences, knowledge, pictures, documents, etc...WE ALL do gain with that broader Picture.

I do confess that it is indeed very very difficult for South Americans like myself to have access to authoritive Historians and their work about the Russian Front. Am aware that there are several of you in Russia, Hungary, Slovenia, etc...doing a fantastic job; sometimes discovering wrecks and writing about the stories behind those ghosts of the past.

I translated from the Russian language the passage for the 5th December 1943 from one of the sites you shared. One can see that both the German side (LW) and Russian original reports (VVS) do have "a bit of Propaganda style". I do not blame either side....it is transcribed like it was...

Just for instance a friend of mine found some harsh words of the Brazilian Commanding Officer of the 1st Brazilian Fighter Squadron (attached to the 350th FG) about at least one case of indiscipline. Those words or comments were Always ommitted inside the "Official Sources" and the case was totally "covered"...Anyway, just to show that even cross-checking sources, etc...we will NEVER be 100% accurate....we can have our own ideas of one side of History, just one vague idea....

Returning to the LAGG 5FN claim of Lipfert on 4th January 1945...although it was only the 16th combat mission of Suhorukhov, LIPFERT on his memories (War Diary) do write that this Russian pilot was "his match or equal" in hability!

I am now working on a major book-tribute about the Brazilians that flew for the RAF, RCAF, SAAF, etc. in WW2...and am considering writing it in English rather than Portuguese language, so a broader range of persons will be able to read...and honor them....Hope to read some books about the Russian Campaign too, in a near futur, by one of you, Members of this Fórum, to enhance my knowledge.

Again I do thank you both, for the patience and sharing of your knowledge and expertise about those 3 claims I was looking more details of Lipfert's amazing career.

Congratulation to the Russian Historians quoted on this thread whose sites and researches are just amazing. Keep going guys...

Humbly yours,
Adriano Silva Baumgartner, ASV 00.344
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  #14  
Old 9th June 2018, 04:17
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Adriano, thank you and good luck to your project! Good news: I almost forgot, but finally found the pics: few years ago one of our researcher friends found the remains of a soviet La-5 in the Tardos-Tarján area. Even the smashed spinner has been found. After cleaning the nice, original red color became visible! Now I must say that the 530 IAP probably had red spinners and white rudders... So .... I think there is a good chance, that this recovered spinner belonged to Suhorukhov's downed plane on January 4, 1945 that Lipfert described in his diary...!

Gabor
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File Type: jpeg Suhorukhov (2).jpeg (148.4 KB, 25 views)
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  #15  
Old 9th June 2018, 04:31
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Sheer brilliance, Gabor

I am with Adriano on this one: keep up the good work and please pass our regards to the amazing guys that are researching the archives and excavating the crashes
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  #16  
Old 9th June 2018, 05:07
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Thank you Nick. Just a few days ago son of Gv.Capt. Armen Artemovich Karakozov visited Nagymányok, Hungary and the crash site of his Dad that he never knew... His Dad was the captain of soviet 14 GvAP DD B-25 Mitchell (S/N. 42-32474, Red '12') on August 9/10, 1944 when Fw. Eckart Ulmer (8./NJG 6) downed them. Their Mitchell unit flew partisan supply-drop missions over Yugoslavia and German night fighters were hunting for them during their approach. According to the soviet mission report that we have, they took off from Kalinovka and dropped the No.2527, 2526, 2553, 2540, 2525, 2567, 2575 and 2619 supply containers at Samarica, Croatia. They were downed on their way back over Hungary. In the village original crash photos showed the wrecks and '474' was visible on it. Yurii visited the site in the forest with my friends' team and wanted to be there alone for a while... Then he took a bag of soil ... when ironically 2 more pieces of melted aluminum chunks were found. After having a nice lunch, reviewing the recovered wrecks of his Dad's plane, placing flowers to the memorial of the six, once "unknown" soviet airmen in the village, he returned to Russia. It's shocking to see as he places flowers to his own father's memorial... He also took some soil to the brother of one of his father's crewmembers whom he knows, and who was too old now for the trip and could not come with him. Another "case" is closed. Hard to say anything.
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  #17  
Old 9th June 2018, 07:55
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
Thank you Nick. Just a few days ago son of Gv.Capt. Armen Artemovich Karakozov visited Nagymányok, Hungary and the crash site of his Dad that he never knew... His Dad was the captain of soviet 14 GvAP DD B-25 Mitchell (S/N. 42-32474, Red '12') on August 9/10, 1944 when Fw. Eckart Ulmer (8./NJG 6) downed them. Their Mitchell unit flew partisan supply-drop missions over Yugoslavia and German night fighters were hunting for them during their approach. According to the soviet mission report that we have, they took off from Kalinovka and dropped the No.2527, 2526, 2553, 2540, 2525, 2567, 2575 and 2619 supply containers at Samarica, Croatia. They were downed on their way back over Hungary. In the village original crash photos showed the wrecks and '474' was visible on it. Yurii visited the site in the forest with my friends' team and wanted to be there alone for a while... Then he took a bag of soil ... when ironically 2 more pieces of melted aluminum chunks were found. After having a nice lunch, reviewing the recovered wrecks of his Dad's plane, placing flowers to the memorial of the six, once "unknown" soviet airmen in the village, he returned to Russia. It's shocking to see as he places flowers to his own father's memorial... He also took some soil to the brother of one of his father's crewmembers whom he knows, and who was too old now for the trip and could not come with him. Another "case" is closed. Hard to say anything.
Gobsmacking....

As I am sure you know (...but for the benefit of other forum users....)
That one was just the first of two legitimate victories that Ulmer achieved that night. Three quarters of an hour later, he shot down 43-3507/"Red 4" of 14 GAPDD. That was the crew of GvLt. Pchelov KIA. The plane burned down a house, with a young boy killed by burning fuel
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  #18  
Old 9th June 2018, 11:16
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Correct. Our team has recovered that B-25 Mitchell too at Akasztó, but found no living relatives of the killed crew yet.
Gabor
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  #19  
Old 14th June 2018, 15:45
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HGabor View Post
Nick, I agree. Here is the famous, and well decorated 17 VA, 244 BAD, 449 BAP, 3rd Squadron A-20B Boston S/N: 41-2937 still in 1944 in Bulgaria, as well as her graphic. Nickname: "Za Pobedu!" or: "For Victory!" Tactical number on rudder is unknown, but probably white ~ 9. (1st Squadron numbers were red.) This particular plane was Lipfert's 173rd victory over the Börgönd airfield on January 8, 1945 in Hungary at Székesfehérvár-S. (In German: Stuhlweißenburg) This was the leading plane of their formation and by waving the wings they tried to pick up the soviet Yak fighter escort from Börgönd, when Lipfert caught her. Their group took off from Madocsa airfield. The killed crew:

л-т Ветлов Виктор Михайлович pilot (№104164, +)
л-т Ионов Виктор Матвеевич navigator/bombardier (№104174, +)
с-а Толмацкий Иосиф Исаевич radioman (+)
с-т Бурцев Василий Федорович gunner (+)

Gabor
Gabor
May I ask what all the digits shown in the picture means? We can see 267 and 46-78. Since it is s/n 41-2937 they can have nothing to do with that and I don't believe they have anything to do with any Douglas c/n either, they are listed as in the 5001-5999 range.

B Rgds
Stig
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  #20  
Old 14th June 2018, 16:22
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: 9 December 1943 - YAK 1 loss (Lipfert's 74th victory)

Hi Stig,

No, '267' and '41-2937' DO belong to each other as '267 'is the end part (last 3 digits) of Douglas C/n: 5267 painted on the nose, still in the Santa Monica, Calif. aircraft factory and 12937 on the tail is the corresponding Army A. F. Serial Number (41-2937) for it. There is a strict link between the white Douglas nose numbers and the Army tail No.s. for the Bostons that you can calculate easily based on production chart.

So the big, 3 digit long white nose numbers on the A-20B Bostons were the last 3 digits of the 4 digit Douglas Construction numbers.

Not sure about the small 46-78.

Cheers,
Gabor
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