JG2 and microfilm claims on 05/09/43

[focusfocus]

Hello ALL
Claims are duplicated (?) in T.Wood's list:
For ex:
Rösle and Zettel:2929/14 West 16.25
Stolle and Mosch:2937/14 West 16.27
....etc etc.
Are they duplicates due to misinterpretation of microfilm?That's almost all the claims!!
Even for the JG2 (many overclaiming!),it's very amazing.
Michel

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

The microfilms do have some quirks that mean you have to be careful understanding. For earlier NJG claims there are many instances of claims being duplicated exactly a year later i.e details exactly the same with the exception of the year...period 1942-1943.

With JG2 yes massive overclaiming, but also sometimes two pilots share a claim according to the anerk nr. But also often with the earlier typed-out microfilms for each staffel there is duplication with a.s.m-v.n.e claims, they appear on the typed-out staffel claims, but are duplicated in the a.s.m-v.n.e microfilm. This ends with the daily microfilm entries where a handwritten page for East and West have all units claims. This begins in late July 1942 for some units, but then gradually all other units end up on the daily microfilm sheets, the last are some of JG1/JG11 staffel in the Autumn of 1943.

But not all JG2 pilots overclaimed you understand. With other units this overclaiming is usually at staffel or gruppe level, and mostly a small number of Staffel per Geschwader, but sometimes it's whole gruppe, and most of a Geschwader, this is the case with JG2. My friend John Foreman theorised that this Geschwader played on their name "Richthoven", but crash-sites especially in the West were investigated, you will find that JG2 made most of it's claims over the sea, perhaps the reason is somewhere in between. JG26 also in the West are the opposite i.e little overclaiming, yet one famous JG2 ace transferred to them and still managed to continue his overclaiming!

The Luftwaffe claims procedure was the most paper intensive your find, i.e claimants report, witness report e.t.c, so you would think it perfect, but I suspect all this paperwork probably helped over claimers i.e once produced it was fact...…..cast in stone.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[focusfocus]

Hi Johannes

I'm REALLY,REALLY, sorry but J don't understand everything
Should I consider that the 32 claims that day (29/05/43) are all applications for approvals?

Still really sorry.
Best regards
Michel

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

Microfilm entries in the West for 29th May 1943,microfilm is not under exposed, so okay to read, there is no misinterpretation. That for Schneider and Keppler at 1741 hrs is shared, as that for Bruno Stolle and Helmut Mosch at 1627 hrs, so total claims actually only twenty-nine! No other Geschwader claimed, so I can believe huge overclaiming. When JG26 claims it's rather accurate, when both of these Geschwader claim together there is overclaiming, but not so pronounced......conclusion in my opinion most, but not all JG26 pilots were honest, most, but not all JG2 pilots overclaimed, foremost amongst these was Wurmheller. It is known the Egon Mayer had a personal problem with Wurmheller, who was ego eccentric, but I suspect Mayer was himself suspecting Wurmheller's overclaiming, this assumes Mayer was honest himself, or could mean there was some kind of system worked like actually shootdown one, claim two or something, and Wurmheller was breaking even this rule.
claims matching losses experts can probably with a lot of work workout who were the good and bad guys.
By memory I do believe that Georg-Peter Eder was honest.

There were on this date thirty-one claims on the microfilms(two shaered remember), and at least one unconfirmed(Ottfried Philipp) not on the microfilms. Two of the thirty-one claims were A.S.M i.e need further investigation, and three v.n.e-a.s.m, again confirmation pending. To of the v.n.e-a.s.m entries have the exact same times/altitude/type (Erich Swat and Karlheinz Munsch) again I suspect these two were also shared i.e the same B-17(1640 hrs kill), therefore the actual number claimed by JG2 was twenty-eight.

Hope this is the answer your looking for.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Franek Grabowski]

I am afraid it is a very positive but not sure if justified view of JG 26.

[Johannes]

Hi

I looked at the U.S losses, in my opinion between seven and ten B-17's fell to JG2 this day. One stands out to match Eder's claim, that piloted by Jack McMath which was last seen at 1745 hrs, Eder's claim is for 1746 hrs, and this aircraft was in a lead position, Eder is known to have pioneered and preferred the "schnauzer auf schnauzer" attack method i.e at the leading aircraft.

Let's just say my theory is correct, then another twenty-seven claims were made for between six and nine actual losses.

During the Schweinfurt raid the U.S lost sixty B-17's, and similar number damaged beyond repair. Luftwaffe claims numbered 120 so a far more accurate ratio of claim v losses, but then again other non JG2 units were involved.

Back to Eder, he was with JG51 prior to JG2, which might explain if he was truly an honest claimer.

What the 29th May 1943 exposes is that FACT JG2 were the worst unit in the West for overclaiming, as no other units were involved.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[focusfocus]

Hi Johannes
Thanks for the clarification.

I counted 13 B-17 that could be the victims of JG2(some flak + JG2) and two very damaged and beyond repair.

Claimants:
Walter Oesau=B-17 3831/14 West 17.25
Horst Maier =B-17 3831/14 West 17.25

Egon Mayer=B-17 3871/14 West 17.35

Siegfried Lemke=B-17 10 Km S.W.St.Nazaire (at sea) 16.25 !!!

42-29773 (379°BG) and 42-3113 (379°BG) victims of Oesau/Maier
42-29792 (305°BG) victim of E.Mayer (and flak ?).

Nothing correspond to the claim of Lemke (no B-17 lost over the sea S.W St Nazaire)

I am looking for others claimants
Any help is Welcome
Michel

[focusfocus]

correction and addition

One of the victim of Maier/Oesau is 42-292838 (351°BG) and not 42-3113.

Helmut-Felix Bolz=B-17 10Km N.W.Rennes 16.15
His victim:42-3042 (96°BG)
Michel

[Johannes]

Hi Michel

They seem to be in two waves with a thirty-five minute gab:-

1610 hrs Ofw Werner Beckers 7500 metres 7./JG2
1615 hrs Hptm Helmut-Felix Bolz 7500 metres Stab.I./JG2
1623 hrs Oblt Friedrich Edelmann 7500 metres Stab.I./JG2
1623 hrs Uffz Siegfried Lemke 3500 metres 1./JG2
1625 hrs Ofw Walter Ebert 5000 metres 8./JG2
1625 hrs Fw Wilhelm Kopp 4000 metres 9./JG2
1625 hrs Oblt Ottfried Philipp(unconfirmed) 7./JG2
1625 hrs Lt Franz Rosle 5000 metres 7./JG2
1625 hrs Lt Josef Wurmheller 6000 metres 9./JG2
1625 hrs Lt Horst Zettel 5000 metres 1./JG2
1627 hrs Uffz Helmut Mosch 5000 metres 8./JG2
1627 hrs Hptm Bruno Stolle 5000 metres 8./JG2
1627 hrs Lt Josef Wurmheller 4000 metres 9./JG2
1628 hrs Uffz Heinz Schneider 6000 metres 9./JG2
1630 hrs Uffz Erich Swat 2000 metres 9./JG2
1633 hrs Fw Karlheinz Munsche 2000 metres 9./JG2
1635 hrs Hptm Egon Mayer 400 metres A.S.M Stab.III./JG2(claim disputed, but awarded, due to I would say it being a damaged aircarft evident by it's low altitude)
1640 hrs Fw Karlheinz Munsche 1200 metres v.n.e-a.s.m 9./JG2
1640 hrs Uffz Erich Swat (same details as above, again already damaged?)
1650 hrs Lt Hans-Joachim Kinzel 7500-6000 metres(i.e a descending combat)Stab.III./JG2
1725 hrs Oblt August Maier Ten Dormkaat 7000-8000 metres Stabst./JG2
1725 hrs Obstlt Walter Oesau 7000-8000(ascending combat)Stabst./JG2
1725 hrs Lt Hans-werner Zajons 5300 metres 9./JG2
1735 hrs Hptm Egon Mayer 2000 metres Stab.III./JG2
1736 hrs Fw Erwin Ignor 4000 metres 9./JG2
1741 hrs Uffz Fritz Keppler 4500 metres 11./JG2
1741 hrs Lt Georg Schneider 4500 metres 11./JG2
1743 hrs Fw Paul Bleyer 7000 metres 9./JG2
1743 hrs Fw Leopold Groß 6000 metres 12./JG2
1743 hrs Fw Josef Lorey 7000 metres 1./JG1
1745 hrs Ofw Herbert Hoenicka 5000 metres 12./JG2
1746 hrs Lt Georg-Peter Eder 5000 metres 12./JG2

Kind Regards

Johannes