Lancaster or Hallifay loss on 11. November 1944 near Obergrenzebach, Germany

[Flugplatz Giessen]

Hello,
on the night of November 11, to November 12, 1944 a Lancaster or Halifax was shot down near Obergrenzebach/Germany. There is no entry in the book "Bomber Command Losses" about this crash near Obergrenzebach. There is a German Report in the Bundesarchiv Freiburg that says that at 19:55 Uhr an airplane (probably a Lancaster) crashed 2.5 km near Obergrenzebach on 11. November 1944. I checked the Bomber Command Losses, the graves entries in Hannover, Dürnbach without any result. One crew member died in the crash but there is no grave entry in Obergrenzebach or nearby to find.

I would be happy if someone can help here.
Best
Mirko

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[Theo Boiten]

Checked this one for you Mirko but no Lancaster (or Halifax) crashed at/near this location on the night of 11/12 November 1944, are you sure it was on this particular night? Could you post a scan of the document that you found in the BAMA/Freiburg?

Cheers, Theo

[RSwank]

I wonder if a possibility might be Lancaster PB188. Its crash site does not seem to be known and I believe there was one casualty, Albert Cyril Mathews. The rest of the crew were POWs. Mathews is listed at Runnymede.


https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/fi...RIL%20MATHEWS/



The other Lancaster that went missing that night with no listed crash location was PB356. Several (or all) of the crew are buried in Hamburg, so more than one casualty.

[MW Giles]

Google maps says there is one Obergrenzebach and it is just under 290km SSW of Harburg, the target for the 5 Group raid

Theo will have the bombing times but the NJ claims are all around 19:03 to 19:45 hrs give or take. 19:55 does not give the aircraft time to go another 300 km. It is quite a navigation error to carry on for that distance from your target when home is the other way.

The time of your crash 19:55 is right for a loss at Nieder Ochtenhausen, 15 km south of Hemmoor. Is there another Obergrenzebach near there?

Martin

[Flugplatz Giessen]

All,

thanks a lot for your answers.

@Theo: There are two independent sources:
First: Serveral eye withness reports that confirm 11.11.1944, published in Konrad Rudolphs book.
Second: my hand written notes from 25years ago form the Bundes-militärachiv Freiburg. Unfortnunately without the Archiv signatureRL?2031N?)

"11.11.1944, 19:55, 2,5km SW Obergrenzebach, vermutlich Lancaster, 99% Aufschlagbrand, Ursache unbekannt"


@Martin:Nieder Ochtenhausen is Lancaster 643, confirmed by Dietrich Alsdorf, Stade

I wounder if a burning aircraft can still fly about 300km without a pilot???

@RSwank: That was my first thought too. Lancaster PB188. It fits perfectly. But one of the crew members come down per parachute near Stade. I made a contact with a historian in Stade and he confirm this. But there is no specific indication of where the aircraft crashed. There are suspicions that the plane crashed over Harburg. But no evidence!!

It is possible the Lancaster PB188 could fly so far (ca 300km) without a pilot an burning. In Theos book the attack of the nightfighter is confirm at 19:00 Uhr. So the plane could have flown for another 55 min. When the pilot left the plane it was 20.000 feet high but burning.

There are other units that were on missions this night. Spezial Opps? French/Poland units other? KG 200?

It´s difficult.. I know.
Best
Mirko

[Theo Boiten]

Hello all -I have not only analysed all the NJ claims for this night but also the Flak claims, shortly to be published in the NCA series. One of these was for PB188:

-83 Sqn Lancaster PB188: hit by 2./schw. Flak Abt. 414 Turmflak, 3./schw. Flak Abt. 607, 1./schw. Flak Abt. 601, 3./schw. Flak Abt. 613, 3./schw. Flak Abt. 162 and 2./schw. Flak Abt. 613, blew up and crashed at the railway station of Hamburg-Harburg at 19.28 hrs.

For PB643 and PB356 I have the following entries in the NCA manuscript:

Oblt. Helmut Dietrich: 1 6./NJG2 4-mot FF Quelle (NW Hamburg): 4.500 m. 19.41 227 Sqn Lancaster PB643. Note: also claimed by Luftwaffe Flak of 4. & 6./schw. Flak Abt. 607, 1./schw. Flak Abt. 225, 2./schw. Flak Abt. 162 RAD, 2./schw. Flak Abt. 601 and 1./schw. Flak Abt. 162 (‘Lancaster Elm bei Bremervörde 19.55 hrs’), and by Marine Flak of 1. & 3./M. Flak Abt. 294 (‘Lancaster N. Bremervörde BT 8 19.55 hrs’), Marine Flak claim confirmed on 4.12.1944

Hptm. Dietrich Kornblum: 1 9./NJG2 4-mot NW Hamburg: 4.800 m. 19.03 619 Sqn Lancaster PB356. Note: also claimed by Flak, two claims filed with OKL: ‘Lancaster Hamburg-Ellerholzhafen 19.15 hrs’ by 3./schw. Flak Abt. 225, 1./schw. Flak Abt. 613 RAD, 5./schw. Flak Abt. 602, 4./schw. Flak Abt. 635, 3./schw. Flak Abt. 144 (Eisb.), 4./schw. Flak Abt. 647, and ‘Lancaster Hamburg-Neuhof 19.17 hrs’ by 2./schw. Flak Abt. 414 Turmflak, 3./schw. Flak Abt. 607, 1./schw. Flak Abt. 144 (Eisb.), 3. & 4./schw. Flak Abt. 602 and 2./schw. Flak Abt. 137 (RAD)


Cheers, Theo

[Flugplatz Giessen]

Thx a lot Theo..

83 Sqn Lancaster PB188: hit by 2./schw. Flak Abt. 414 Turmflak, 3./schw. Flak Abt. 607, 1./schw. Flak Abt. 601, 3./schw. Flak Abt. 613, 3./schw. Flak Abt. 162 and 2./schw. Flak Abt. 613, blew up and crashed at the railway station of Hamburg-Harburg at 19.28 hrs

Is this your guess or was it confirmed by the Flak Unit?
I´ll try to assign the losses as follows:

Lancaster PD314 1 mile NE of airfield Wickenby
Lancaster LM648 crashed with 207sqd Lancaster over England
Lancaster PB369 crashed Hamburg Ohlsdorf
Lancaster LM360 crashed at Fiskerton
Lancaster LL939 crashed Beckdorf near Buxtehude
Lancaster PB188 Hamburg Harburg Railway Station - ?!?
Lancaster PB428 please see LM648
Lancaster PB643 crashed Nieder Ochtenhausen
Lancaster NF917 crashed Ramelsloh/Stelle
Lancaster NN714 crashed Bremerhaven
Lancaster PB356 crashed at Hamburg Ellershofen or Neuhof


So if the crash of PB188 ist safe in Harburg railway station then I ask myself which Lancaster crashed near Obergrenzebach on 11.11.1944 at 19:55 Uhr?

Wrong Date? I dont belive in that because we have two independent statements and sources.

It is possible that not all losses are recorded in Chorleys Book "BC Losses"?
Best
Mirko