1 Sqn on 16 August 1940

[Franek Grabowski]

Chris, I think you refer to the German time, while I have converted it into BST or DBST. By the way we have had a lengthy discussion with Tim concerning time difference - a little bit confusing.
I know of the mess of the battle, hence my question to Michal, why is he so sure it was Franziskeit and not Wick for example.

[Peter Cornwell]

Franek,

We all seek certainty where often there can be none. Michal is not 'so sure' it was FRANZISKET - he makes no such claim, he simply points to the possibility. You consider WICK's claim much more likely, a fact that no-one will surely dispute.

[Andy Saunders]

Just a little more detail for 16 August 1940 from the Flugbuch of Uffz Paul Lege of 5/JG 27 who participated in events that day. He seems to have been flying a newly delivered 109 in factory codes NA+HS. He flew two war flights over England that day in this machine, as under:

Escort for Ju 87's over England from 13.15 to 14.25
Frei jagd over England from 17.50 to 19.00

These were his 41st and 42nd war flights respectively, and I suspect that NA+HS was W Nr 3881, becoming "14" by 20 August after which it was his regular mount and he rarely flew any other machine before being lost in it on 7 October 1940.

Just a little more minutiae for the 16 August 40.

[Fairlop]

Hi Franek &all,

1) I hope I am not wrong with differencies with British and German times but the German should be +1 hour.
2) It looks there were four Squadrons in the air in Portsmouth / Chichester / Selsey Bill area at about 12.55 and involved in the fight with a first wafe of Germans. The 1, 43 & 601 Sqn with Hurricanes and 602 Sqn with Spitfires. 43 at 11000 ft with 602 above near by Selsey Bill, 1 Sqn at 10000 ft probably a bit N/NW. The County of London Squadron close to Tangmere. It t/o from Tangmere at latest.
3) 43 Sqn attacked Ju 87s first at 12.55. CRs are only for that time but I believe they fought next 5-10 minutes at least. 602 Sqn did not attacked at that time. It could still covered Hurricanes against surprise from above or did not see Stukas and stay in their altitude. 601 Sqn started a clash with Ju 87s at 13.00 for next 5 minutes minimally. 1 Sqn did not participated.
3) German escort – Bf 109 must have had a delay behind Stukas. The 109s from JG 27 appeared on the scene at about 13.10 (14.10 German time), according to the times of first claims. 6th Staffel claims Spitfires in IoW area. Did they meet 602 Sqn ?
If yes, Oblt. Neumann and Lt. Stephan overclaimed because Spits had no casualty. 602 Sqn was already engaged with Stukas. At Selsey at about 13.05.
If no, they have made misidentification and attacked Hurricanes. Of the 43 and 601 Sqn. In the meantime the fight with Ju 87s was moving S – SW, from Tangmere / Selsey area to IoW area. The latter Squadron had one loss but P/O Fiske (c/l at Tangmere) is an evident victim of Ju 87 defence fire. Was it Obergefreiter Witznick of 9./StG 2 who claimed one Hurricane at 12.52 in Selsey area ? Maybe yes.
P/O Woods-Scawen of the 43 Sqn was hit by Ju 87 and there is a source what say that by Bf 109 too. He c/l at Parkhurst, IoW at 13.15. The Squadron had other two damaged Hurricanes – P/O Upton and P/O Gorrie. Both by Ju 87 defence fire, Gorrie with a cannon hole in its rudder too, is said. Upton c/l at Selsey but there is a big possibility it was not Witznick´s victim because of time – Upton claimed three Stukas, it costs a time and landed after oil system his Hurricane collapsed, again time factor. So maybe 6./JG 27 claims. More probably than they hit the Spitfires of 602 Sqn ?
4) 1 sqn was clearly in melée / contact with 109s. Due to route from home airbase at Northolt very probably northly the fighting area. It t/o at 12.30 and would have made farther Portsmouth (?) area by 1255 – 13.00. That is why it did not participated in shooting of Stukas even it was at 10.000 ft and Tim & other airmen could see them. There are two chances how it could continue with the 1 Sqn. I will start with the second possibility.
a) I am in contact with Tim too because of my photo/article, profile etc. for Revi magazine. He mentioned the time of he was s/d at 1.40 at the beginning of discussions. But later he also repeated „don't rely on my memory of time - it was quoted in a book Scramble - from my words“. So this time is not so full-fledged. Another argument why it is not so – it is hard to understandable the Squadron could be waited / flew around the fighting area, only a few miles far from that for almost one hour without a participation in that, when all other Squadron in the area fought hardly.
The time when Squadron met enemy should be about 13.10 and later. Tim said he lost Squadron too. There is time 14.20 (13.10 British) when Oblt. Franzisket claimed a Hurricane near Portsmouth. It is area where Tim´s a/c crashed – Chidham. The time is not so conformable but is it last (confirmed) German claim in the melée and „our“ area.
b) It occured my mind at the start of the puzzle „16 August“. How about own AA fire ? It would not be a first example when gunners shot on own a/c. Again we opened the disscussions with Tim about this possibility. Because I noticed a mention in the Mason´s BoB too, that Tim was a victim of naval gunners. The Squadron flew at 11.000 ft. I am not gun(s) expert but it is an altitude where 20 mm (an more) flak is effective. There is other source (BoB Then & Now) that mentions Tim was downed at 13.05. Out of German claims. Tim did not see the flak around however ...
That is why I rather incline to say a possible victor who s/d Tim Elkington was Oblt. Ludwig Franzisket of 7./JG 27.

I have no patent for rightness and I am open to work with other arguments. 68 years after this event is hard to solve a 100% answer on such big fight. But after working with the details the puzzle could look like was announced. At any rate the Revi article is not built on the fact / event „who shot whom“.

Regards from rainy Czech republic,
Michal

[Franek Grabowski]

Andy
Thanks for the precious bit, it is indeed rare information.

Peter
I do not know who downed Tim, but I am curious how the conclusion was made, if evidence known to me indicates otherwise.

Michal
Tim's time of loss comes from his log book and according to him, it was filed at the time of events, so still fresh in his mind and possibly supported by documents. As to the Squadron staying out of combat, it could have been considered a reserve to join the battle when other units had to retreat. It was RAF tactics of the time to join combat by single Squadrons and the Big Wing was not possibly even an idea. Wick's place of claim is spot on as well, and the question is - whom he fought then?

[Fairlop]

Franek,

213 H & 152 S Sqn fought with 109s SE Swanage, over IoW and E IoW at about 13.40 (British time). That were main opponents for JG 2 and Wick.

Michal

[Franek Grabowski]

Michal
You answer your question then, what have been doing 152 and 213 Sqn during the raid?

[Fairlop]

Franek,

They were called up from western basis a bit later probably, when four Squadrons were in the air already. Sorry I do not have ORB for them.
The reply was on your question to Wick, as well as this.

Michal

[Franek Grabowski]

So I would say a further research into ORBs and Combat Reports is needed. Still I see no argument supporting Franziskeit thesis.

[robert]

You don`t see but we see.
BTW Michal I came to the same conclusion.

Regards

Robert