Need some help - IV./KG76 & III./EKG1

[nvchad2]

I need some help, guys. I've fallen into a pit of confusion.

This all started when I began working on a model Me 262 with decals F1+DA. Quick research told me that F1 was the markings for KG76. Deep research of KG76 says they didn't use Me262s (although I found some evidence that they MAY have had some). Anyway, we'll circle back to this...

F1 was also used for StG77 apparently but I don't think that's important here.

Moving forward, I began a project to display all aircraft that had been used by KG76 along with some info about the unit. The Wikipedia page for KG76 mentioned "photographic evidence" of KG76 using He 111s, but I didn't have access to the book that was cited so I started a DEEP search of the internet. With my wife's help, we discovered a single, drawn, side-view image of an He 111, marked with F1+NW. HUZZAAAH! we thought....

The picture has a caption that says, Until December 1944, the F1 codes belonged to IV./KG76, which transformed to the III./Erg.KG1 at that time.

I knew that IV./KG76 changed to a different unit in Dec 1944, but didn't investigate because I was under the impression F1 just STAYED with KG76. However, a quick search showed that apparently yes, EKG1 (Erg.KG1) used F1 markings on their aircraft...This means the information on Wikipedia is almost certainly wrong and the "Photographic evidence" was likely an He 111 belonging to EKG1.

So now, a light goes off regarding the Me 262. I almost GUARANTEE it belonged to III./EKG1. I have found information that says EKG1 was using Ar234s and Me262s.

But wait...if EKG1 was only using Me262s and Ar234s...why would they have an He111? It's December 1944 and they're creating a new unit using jet airplanes...why would they have a very early bomber tossed in the mix? So...uh...circle back and I'm just baffled.

Did KG76 use He111s?
Did Me262 (F1+DA) actually belong to KG76, or was it in fact part of EKG1?
Does anyone have the book referenced in the Wikipedia citation: Bomber units of the Luftwaffe, 1933-1945 : a reference source (volume 2) - ISBN 1903223873

BONUS INFO:
Heres a link to a post on this site discussing F1+DA and not really reaching a concrete conclusion.
Here's a link to the He111 F1+NW image
Here's a link to a page with some info about EKG1
Here's a link to a page with some info about KG76
Here's a discussion on this site regarding the F1 code being used in both KG76 and StG77
Here's a listing of unit codes showing F1 being used on KG76, III./StG77, and IV./EKG1

[PMoz99]

Hello nvchad2.
When you looked at ww2.dk info as in the 4th link you provided, did you scroll to the bottom of the page and check the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen info?
You'll find it says IV./KG76 had He-111H-20 and H-21 from 7/44-12/44, and no Me-262.
So I'd say the answer to your 2 questions are yes IV./KG76 did have He-111, and no, the Me-262 belonged to EKG1.
Peter

[Nick Beale]

First: does anyone have a photo of that Me 262 that actually shows the fuselage marking as F1+DA? If not, then all we have to go on is the label on the back. If we go on what we can see, then we have "[big] D [small] A" on the nosewheel door, the style of lettering used by KG 51. The location is Giebelstadt: KG 51 was based there but so far as I know it was never associated with KG 76's jet operations.

Serious researchers Dan O'Connell and David E. Brown have posted here that KG 76 had a couple of Me 262 and used them for reconnaissance but I don't know their sources for this. My own efforts have never uncovered a single Me 262 with KG 76, whether in a strength return, a loss report, a deciphered signal, Luftwaffenkommando West daily operations report or an Allied radio monitoring summary. What I do have is that during the actiions against the Remagen bridgehead the Me 262s and Ar 234s of KG 51 and KG 76 were under a single ad hoc tactical command, Gefechtsverband Kowalewski. Kowalewski was also KG 76's Kommodore but that didn't make KG 51 part of KG 76.

[ju55dk]

III/EKG 1 only trained on Ar 234. They did not have any Me 262.
IV/EKG 1 Vkz 9V+ did have a few Me 262, but they were incorporated in KG 51 mid april 1945.

Source. Die Flugzeugführer-Ausbildung der Deutschen Luftwaffe Volume II.
Wikipedia is not to be used as a source. Anyone can write what they like.
Junker

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by ju55dk

IV/EKG 1 Vkz 9V+ did have a few Me 262, but they were incorporated in KG 51 mid april 1945
Junker

On 4 April 1945 they had these: http://www.ghostbombers.com/kf4/West/iv_ekg1.html

[nvchad2]

First of all, thanks to all of you who responded. I really appreciate the extra details and info. Felt a bit overwhelmed for a bit because nobody I talked to about this stuff seemed to have any information so I felt a bit lost.

Originally Posted by PMoz99

Hello nvchad2.
When you looked at ww2.dk info as in the 4th link you provided, did you scroll to the bottom of the page and check the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen info?
You'll find it says IV./KG76 had He-111H-20 and H-21 from 7/44-12/44, and no Me-262.
So I'd say the answer to your 2 questions are yes IV./KG76 did have He-111, and no, the Me-262 belonged to EKG1.
Peter

I completely missed that. I had previously looked through those but couldn't understand exactly what they were showing so I must've pushed it out of my mind. If anyone would be kind enough to explain what the various columns mean I would be really grateful.

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Serious researchers Dan O'Connell and David E. Brown have posted here that KG 76 had a couple of Me 262 and used them for reconnaissance but I don't know their sources for this. My own efforts have never uncovered a single Me 262 with KG 76, whether in a strength return, a loss report, a deciphered signal, Luftwaffenkommando West daily operations report or an Allied radio monitoring summary. What I do have is that during the actiions against the Remagen bridgehead the Me 262s and Ar 234s of KG 51 and KG 76 were under a single ad hoc tactical command, Gefechtsverband Kowalewski. Kowalewski was also KG 76's Kommodore but that didn't make KG 51 part of KG 76.

I read part of an interview with Dietrich Peltz where he says: “Once we had several dozen of the Me 262s arriving to KG-54, KG-51, and KG-76, I was informed that the Arado models were coming and already assembled." But that's the only somewhat official sounding information I've found regarding KG 76 using Me 262s, so I'm also inclined to think it was with another unit.

Originally Posted by ju55dk

III/EKG 1 only trained on Ar 234. They did not have any Me 262.
IV/EKG 1 Vkz 9V+ did have a few Me 262, but they were incorporated in KG 51 mid april 1945.

Source. Die Flugzeugführer-Ausbildung der Deutschen Luftwaffe Volume II.
Wikipedia is not to be used as a source. Anyone can write what they like.
Junker

Hmm...does anyone know where Michael Holm got his information for the ww2.dk site? It shows III./EKG1 using Me 262B-1a in addition to Ar 234s. Mostly just curious now. Seems like a lot of conflicting information out there and verifying sources is REALLY difficult for some stuff. Especially since people have had 70+ years now to mis-interpret or mis-quote stuff.

[nvchad2]

Originally Posted by PMoz99

Hello nvchad2.
When you looked at ww2.dk info as in the 4th link you provided, did you scroll to the bottom of the page and check the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen info?
You'll find it says IV./KG76 had He-111H-20 and H-21 from 7/44-12/44, and no Me-262.
So I'd say the answer to your 2 questions are yes IV./KG76 did have He-111, and no, the Me-262 belonged to EKG1.
Peter

My other reply is still waiting for moderation but I was able to contact a library that was willing to scan a page in the book I mentioned regarding the He111 photograph. It's not a very good photo IMO, but the caption says it's F1+LH, belonging to 1./KG76

I modified the photo some in Photoshop in an attempt to better see the markings, but it didn't really help. Can't tell if I'm seeing very faded letters or if it was taken after they started using very small letters or omitting them altogether. I attached the photo to this reply.

If someone could confirm the photo is F1+LH, or give me some background on the aircraft I would really appreciate it.