Hellmut Nodinger collection

[edwest]

On offer for what I regard as too much.

http://www.regimentals.co.uk/viewpho...h=56188&phqu=9






Usual disclaimer,
Ed

[Larry Hickey]

Ed.

Yes, potentially a very useful reference source, but at about US $9,000 the FB info will likely go into a private collection and never see the light of day anytime soon. If the info in the sales promotion write up is an accurate reflection of what is in the FB, and all the victory claims were officially credited (a highly unlikely event), this could fill in about 20% of the missing victory claims info on the Ring/Bock loss lists for II./ZG1 and III./ZG76 for 1940. Nodinger was apparently a member of 6./ZG1 which was re-designated 9./ZG76 during 07.40. His name does not even appear on the Ring/Bock victory lists for these two units.

Here is what I quickly extracted from the sales promotion flyer (not verified against the FB page fragments shown) for the 1939-40 period. This is the material that relates to the EoE research project.

Hellmut Nodinger pilot Bf109 & Bf110

Uffz/Fw (promoted 01.01.40) Hellmut Nodinger (3./JGr101 - 6./ZG1 - 9/ZG76). DoB 09.04.15. EK2 awarded 24.05.40. EK1 awarded unknown date. Summary info from FB for sale lists victories claimed on 18 or 21 Dec 1939 (Wellington); Western Campaign: 02.06.40 (Potez 63); 04.06.40 (French Curtiss); 04.06.40 (Swiss Bf109); 08.06.40 (Swiss Bf109); and 11.6.40 (Spitfire Portland England); Battle of Britain: 08.08.40 (Hurricane England); 13.08.40 (Hurricane Yeovil, England); 15.08.40 (Hurricane); 29.08.40 (Spitfire); and 08.09.40 (Hurricane Isle of Wight).

It's possible that someone obtained a copy of this critical 4th FB before it went on the market, or was otherwise able to extract info from it. If someone out there did, or a member of the family reads this, I'd sure like to hear from them.

Regards,

[RT]

The blue writtings added recently ??

An idea of when he went to " Bach" ??

Rémi

[edwest]

Hello Larry,

As a side point, what is all this I read about "disappearing into a private collection?" I don't intend to sound mean-spirited or wish to embarrass anyone, but I can't picture a good reason. History is to be shared or published or at least made accessible through some group, archive or museum.



Best,
Ed

[edwest]

Perhaps one of our German researchers could contact the Aero Club in Munich to determine if he was a member, and perhaps, in the process, confirm some aspects of his wartime service.


http://translate.google.com/translat...26prmd%3Dimvns



Ed

[Dean M. Wick]

Hello Gentlemen
I would agree with Larry that this is potentially a gold mine in so far as 1940 bf110 claims are concerned. If I'm not mistaken, at least one german claim (emphesis on "claim") for Swiss A/C on 4/6/40 was to a "NN" of 6/ZG1 (Nodinger?).
I checked Boiten's "Nachtjager War Diaries" Vol.1 regarding the B-17 claim on 14/10/43 while with 3/NJG101 and it is substantiated, although in that work his name is spelled with a "M" instead of an "N".
The collection is extensive, and would, at least on the surface, seem genuine. Larry, hopefully it will become available for further research by your group.

Good Luck

Dean

[Larry Hickey]

Thanx Ed and Dean,

Ed, my comment related to the fact that the collection is so over-priced that only someone who is a rich and very serious memorabilia collector (as opposed to us poor historians) would ever consider buying this at that price. If it does sell, I wouldn't expect that they would be very eager to share for free what they've paid so dearly for.

There is some question about the validity of some of the info on claims made in the cover story about Nodinger. The "either 18 or 21 December 1939" incident doesn't pan out very well. There were no Wellington losses on the 21st, so almost certainly this info relates to the 18th (the Battle of the Heligoland Bight), when 15 Wellingtons were SD or Crashed out of 22. That air battle has been pretty well documented by Prien and Chris Shores, as well as in our Heinrich Weiss manuscript and other sources. There were only two claims by 3./JGr101 pilots confirmed from that action, Oblt Dietrich Robitsch, the StaKap, and Oblt. Rolf Kaldrack. Now this doesn't mean that Nodlinger didn't participate in attacks, or even the shooting down some of the Wellingtons, it just appears that he wan't among the potential claimants whose results were subseqently verified. Shooting down a large bomber often took the combined attacks of several aircraft to achieve results.

There are so many holes and missing info in the 1940 II./ZG1 and III./ZG76 victory claims info that survived the war that judging any of the other claims during that period is almost impossible, although some of them may well be accurate. Then there is the problem of the notes in blue added after the original writing. Still some serious questions about what we might learn from the FB, even if we can eventually get access to it. However, I'd much rather have it available for evaluation than not. The fact that Nodinger isn't even mentioned by Ring/Bock on their loss lists for 1940, still bothers me.

Regards,

[VtwinVince]

Fantastic group of items.

[Dean M. Wick]

Regarding Larrys concerns, could one assume that this collection would be open to examination for authenticity by the sellers?
Not to go all "CSI", but could the blue handwriting have been added immediately after the fact, not 30-40 years later by someone looking to alter the documents? Could an expert in this field be able to clarify this?
Irregardless of this, is there any documentation anywhere, aside from these log books, that would verify Hellmut Nodinger's service record in 1939-40?
As stated earlier, it seems like a very extensive, and detailed collection that would seem genuine, but agreed, hard to explain how a 10+ victory bf110 pilot (Not forgetting the Heinz Wilberg story) would have gone unnoticed at this early stage of the war.

Curious as always

Dean

[edwest]

I suggest contacting the seller. After looking at the award documents more closely, it appears the name should be be spelled Helmut Nödinger. There is no second L in Helmut.



Ed