Insignia & markings WW1

[Buckeye30]

I though I would post a couple of items on distinctive markings; this is a Romanian Nieuport in early 1917 ( one of 28 Type 11s) with Bert Hall and mechanic ( ex-Lafayette) on a mission to Romania.
The cocardes are the same colour as later ones but in a different order, yellow centre, then blue, then red outer. Rudder stripes are ( from front) yellow, blue, red, the serial is in white on the blue.
The other photo ( from the 1919 edition of JANES) shows the cocardes in use on both fuselage and wings.



Nick

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_H...ort_11_C.1.jpg

[musec04]

Hi Nick,


Nice photos. Thanks for posting.


I was going to ask you when the change occured but looked at this first:


https://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=4904


I thought post #2 in that thread gave the answer, and appropriate dates, but then Denes Bernad states in #6 of the thread "The Rumanian cockade was blue (inside)-yellow-red (outside) from the very beginning, inspired by the French national markings. Only the type of film used back then made light blue look light and golden yellow look dark - just as depicted in the above photos."


So now I'm really intrigued. Why do your two photos show different colours?


Regards,


Clint

[Buckeye30]

Hi Clint. Pretty sure this is PAN film which lightens yellow to almost white as here; if ORTHO film was used ( both were available then) it would make blues paler but not to this extent (they used a quite dark blue). PAN is closer to the real colour tones.
This is another Romanian Nie.11 with more clearly-defined cocardes, light centres.
Could be totally wrong of course!



https://romaniadacia.files.wordpress...eople-army.jpg


Regards
Nick

[Buckeye30]

Nearly all the Nieuport trainers ( both single- and 2-seater) at USAS training fields in 1917-18 had a designator ---"3-" next to the field number on the fuselage and in the same style; a bit of a mystery unless it refers to the school, most going to Issoudon.

The field numbers were 900s and 1000s. Serials were not in the usual system, this is N10591, others included 10541 (930) and 10572 (958).
The table is from James Fahey's "U.S.ARMY AIRCRAFT 1908-1946" it shows the Nieuport 80/81/83 trainers aquired from France; "E" = Ecole (school) and "2" a 2-seater. In the last column "XIV" is the Type in this case "Training, air cooled".
A * shows the squadrons in service at the Armisice.
The N80/81 had the enlarged wing area ( 23m2 must be Nie.12 equivalent) and N83 had the 18m2 wing ( so Nie.10 presumably).
I wondered whether you had any thoughts on the "3-" ??

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Buckeye30

Nearly all the Nieuport trainers ( both single- and 2-seater) at USAS training fields in 1917-18 had a designator ---"3-" next to the field number on the fuselage and in the same style; a bit of a mystery unless it refers to the school, most going to Issoudon.

The field numbers were 900s and 1000s. Serials were not in the usual system, this is N10591, others included 10541 (930) and 10572 (958).
The table is from James Fahey's "U.S.ARMY AIRCRAFT 1908-1946" it shows the Nieuport 80/81/83 trainers aquired from France; "E" = Ecole (school) and "2" a 2-seater. In the last column "XIV" is the Type in this case "Training, air cooled".
A * shows the squadrons in service at the Armisice.
The N80/81 had the enlarged wing area ( 23m2 must be Nie.12 equivalent) and N83 had the 18m2 wing ( so Nie.10 presumably).
I wondered whether you had any thoughts on the "3-" ??

Nick

I am pretty certain the prefix digit 3 stood for 3rd Aviation Instruction Center at Issoudun. It was a huge undertaking and only the Fields 1 - 6 in the Lizeray Commune covered almost 700 hectares. Later Fields 7 - 12 were added almost doubling the area. The AIC codes you see were basically numbered from 1 and up (highest known is 1859). Since the Center received 1970 aircraft I suppose technically code 1970 might have been reached.
Of these 1482 were various Nieuport models so we can easily see why photos of these are in a clear majority.

The SFA numbers in the 10000 range were for the Nieuport trainer (Type 80-83) versions only. I have not seen any Nieuport aircraft in the N.10 to N.28 range using such high serial numbers. When the Nieuport 29 came along it used the 12000 range.

While Fahey was good when published, his work on WW 1 aircraft has been superseded by Robert Casari's lifetime research in this field. If I need to make a choice I follow Casari any day of the week. Not gospel, but close!

The aircraft with serial number N10591 and 3 AIC code 3-1002 was a Type 83.

Cheers
Stig

[Buckeye30]

Much obliged Stig. Looking at the base of the V-strut looks like an "83" there.
All for now
Nick

[Dénes Bernád]

It is only now that I found Clint's private message pointing out this thread.
What he quoted from an earlier statement of mine is still valid. The differences in how various colours can be seen on period b/w photos are greatly pending on what type the original negative was: orthochromatic, or panchromatic.
I attach a sample photo of a Rumanian aircraft, where the marking's colours are well known: the cockade in centre has a blue dot (centre), surrounded by a yellow circle, while the outer circle was red. The cross itself was yellow, while the outline blue. Typical pro-Axis ARR marking.

[Buckeye30]

Hi Denes. Thank you for the reply to Clint; as you see in the photo of Bert Hall's Nieuport at the top of the page the serial is white on the middle stripe but would it be white if the stripe was yellow?

That's why I thought it was blue with yellow at the front of the rudder (which would match the cocardes).

Let me know what you think please.
We appreciate your Rumanian aces book by the way. Love John Weal's artwork; have you seen Harry Dempsey's art in the WW1 books?

Regards
Nick