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  #11  
Old 20th June 2017, 10:03
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Regarding the date 17 June 1940,Gillet cites as source:
(1) Letter of Lucien Morareau of 20 February 2005 (archives Gillet)
(2) Quotation proposal dates 17 June;S.H.D/marine,TVV10 bis.

Claims "sur" (sources Gillet and Morareau)
AC1=3 claims
AC2=4 claims
AC3=2 claims
AC5=0

Total=9
Michel
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  #12  
Old 21st June 2017, 07:34
MarkRS MarkRS is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

From Thierry Le Roy of http://www.bretagne-aviation.fr, I have this:

Le jour du combat est bien le 19 juin 1940. L e cuirassé Jean Bart , dont les aménagements n'étaient pas achevés, appareilla des chantiers de Saint-Nazaire dans la nuit du 18 au 19 juin. Pour couvrir son départ vers Casablanca, la Marine avait créé une escadrille de chasse équipée de cinq MS 406 venus du Cours de chasse de l'Aéronautique navale de Saint-Raphaël et basés à La Baule. Ils étaient pilotés par le lieutenant de vaisseau Moneuse, l'enseigne de vaisseau Dufresne, les premiers-maîtres Barbé et Chaffurin (moniteurs du cours), et par le second-maître Blachère (pilote-élève). Le 19 juin, ils ont intercepté trois bombardiers allemands Heinkel 111 au moment où le Jean Bart quittait l'embouchure de la Loire. Cette information provient des rapports d'opération des pilotes.

Basically states that the combat was on 19/6/40 confirmed by the pilot's log books.

Also:

Renseignements pris, l'information que vous avez lue sur mon site (page FAQ) provient d'un article paru en 2001 dans la revue Aéro-Journal n°18.
J'ai contacté l'auteur (très connu en France) afin de connaître ses sources. Mais ses réponses ont été plutôt évasives. Et lorsque je lui ai demandé un peu plus de précisions, il ne m'a plus répondu, ce qui me fait penser qu'il a sans doute confondu deux journées en écrivant son article.
(Ce n'est pas la première fois que je constate de telles erreurs de la part de cet auteur qui écrit beaucoup, mais pas toujours des choses sûres).
J'ai donc contacté un autre auteur (Lucien Morareau) spécialiste de l'Aéronautique navale française, qui m'a répondu n'avoir pas vu d'archives au sujet d'un combat des MS 406 le 17 juin au dessus du Lancastria . Par contre, il confirme (comme je vous l'avais écrit dans mon premier Email), un combat contre des He 111 le 19 juin au dessus du Jean-Bart .

Which states that the provenance of the 17/6/40 date is very iffy and that Lucien Morareau confirmed no record of any Morane combat over the Lancastria.
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  #13  
Old 21st June 2017, 09:39
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Michel

I must say it feels very, very strange that Gillet should have a letter from Lucien Morareau with such information, since Morareau never once has published that himself.

Whenever I have been in contact with Lucien Morareau I have found him very informative and both kind and full of integrity.

What Mark quotes from Thierry Le Roy is basically what Morareau has written himself, and I again apologize for my lack of knowledge in the French language and my partly faulty interpretation of his writings.

Cheers
Stig
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  #14  
Old 21st June 2017, 11:49
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Having worked on my own from primary sources - remembering that Aéronautique navale never awarded official victories - I came to this conclusion:
AC1 & AC2 : 8 claims
AC3, AC4 & AC5 : 4 claims.
For what it is worth.

Chris
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  #15  
Old 21st June 2017, 12:41
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Hi Stig

Your remark is relevant,but I quote only the sources that Gillet himself mentions in his book in orders to support his remarks on the events of 17/06.
Only Gillet himself could go deeper into his statements.

I am neutral,and like you,I am wondering!....Wait and see

Michel
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  #16  
Old 21st June 2017, 13:11
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Hello Chris,

Have you more details of the total claims you mention for "AC3, AC4 & AC5" ?

Lucien Morareau mention 2 victories for AC3, while other sources mention 4. No source mention victories by AC4 and there's the subject of the topic, the eventual victory of AC5. That give a number of possible distributions of victories among these units.
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  #17  
Old 21st June 2017, 15:00
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Thanks Chris

If you compare your notes with those of Lucien's where do you differ?

Cheers
Stig
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  #18  
Old 22nd June 2017, 11:08
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Re: Gabriel Barbé of AC5 or 5AC

Hi Gentlemen

"I put some oil on the fire"
I have aero-journal n°18:I read it in "length,in broad and across,it's impossible to find an allusion that corroborates the 12 victories according to C.J.Ehrengardt.

But errors:Yes,as the 20/05/40,where five V.156F would have been shot down by III/JG2.....exept that no victories were claimed that day by III/JG2!
......so

Michel
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