info on victory claims on bf 110 rudders

[focusfocus]

hello,

On the net,I have seen five photos of bf 110 rudders with claims

the first with seven claims: 1st polish
2nd and 3rd orange triangles
4th to 7th roundels


the second with seven claims: 1st polish
2nd roundel
3rd and 4th orange triangles
5th to 7th roundels

one with eleven claims : 1st orange triangle
2nd to 8th roundels
9th to 11th reds stars

another with eight claims : 1st to 3rd polish
4th to 8th roundels

and the last with 16 claims : 1st and 2nd polish
3rd to 9th roundels
10th yougoslave
11th to 16th reds stars

Does anybody have any more informations about the pilots with these scoreboards

Greatful for any assistance

[Johannes]

Hi

I did search through earlier ZG pilots and don't think these pilots were from ZG26 or ZG76.Trouble is that there is no micro films before July 1942 of ZG1 or ZG2. I don't think ZG1 ever went to Yugoslavia, and ZG2 seemed to almost completely lack aces. Viktor Molders or ZG1 is almost a match.

There are a few non ZG Bf110 flying units around at that time, but again they lacked aces.

I have some questions for your question, and a general one for members.

Are some of the roundels for French aircraft?, and which ones.

Where would a orange triangle denote a claims from. I thought Dutch claims were just a Dutch flag......though with rudder markings things do vary. Also sometimes(like Rollwage) rudder marking indicate if unconfirmed!

Kind Regards

Johannes

[focusfocus]

hello,

what do you mean by dutch claims were just dutch flag?

here is of what I think

for photo n° 5 it is the rudder of Wilhelm spies ( two polish with I.(schwere jagd)/ LG1 and one yougo with I/ZG 26) source obermaier

the others were I/ZG 1 and II/ZG 1

photo n°1 victor molders ??

[Johannes]

Hi

To answer your question about a "Dutch" claim, by memory I seem to recall just a Dutch flag above the bar, but as I say units and individual pilots differ. Yet orange is associated with Nederland, not sure why it would be a triangle though.

My first thought was these are rudders from ZG 1 which had a number of aces from early on, also in Russia from start, but not sure they went to Yugoslavia?

I have the dates for Viktor Molders claims, and it is a close though not perfect match. These are:-

5th September 1939 PZL 37 ~0820 hrs Nr.1
7th September 1939 PZL 37 ~1610 hrs Nr.2
10th May 1940 unknown type Nr.3
11th May 1940 Fokker T5(Dutch) Nr.4
29th May 1940 unknown type Nr.5
5th June 1940 unknown type Nr.6
5th June 1940 unknown type Nr.7
12th June 1940 unknown type Nr.8

All were with 1./ZG 1.

As I say the earlier claims for the whole of ZG 1 are not found, but I do know a lot of the Polish claims, but cannot be 100% on the accuratecy. So I can throw a few names at you. Unlike ZG 2, ZG 1's pilots were awarded many DKiG, so a combination of Polish claims and DKiG winners is likely to give you the names you seek.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[sidney]

Johannes, I believe that the inverted orange triangle was a part of the national markings of the Royal Netherlands Air Force in 1940s, and likely beyond.

[Chris Goss]

Google Dutch Air Force markings and you will see the triangle

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Certainly seems that the orange triangle was adopted by ZG 1 and others probably in indicate a claim over a Dutch aircraft......thanks for that Chris and Sydney

I'll look again through the scant ZG 1 claims I have to see if anybody sticks out.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[udf_00]

8 claims :
If the last roundel differs form the preceding 4 :
Falck got 3 Polish, 4 British & one Danish.

[focusfocus]

hello Johannes

the 8th( or the 7th: I have only one polish claim) of Viktor Molders:12 june 1940 is a french plane of "groupe de transport" 1/601,a FARMAN 224

in your lot of polish claims,have you one to uffz helmut eberlein?

on e-bay, I have seen a photo of a bf 110 rudder with two claims

7/9/39 1 polish
15/4/40 1 br

only two pilots makes claims the 15/4/40

Lt Georg Graner (his first) I(J)/LG2
Uffz Helmut Eberlein I/ZG 1 for one hudson(220°sqd)

thus the pilot who makes a polish claim was Eberlein? no?

thus the photo n°2 is the bf 110 rudder of Eberlein

one polish,one br and two nederlands

what do you think?

regards

[Johannes]

Hi

The Eberlein theory sounds convincing, but for the fact that almost all of the ZG units earlier claims are not found on the micro films, there could be other guys who claimed on 15th April 1940 that we just do not know about, and Allied loses are not so much help, I think that generally ZG pilots are not as accurate in there claiming as NJG or even JG pilots.........this is strange as you would think that if hit by a Bf110 that the fire-power would dice an aircraft into oieces.

Kind Regards

Johannes