Luftwaffe claims on RL5/1446-1462

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello,

according to the content of several threads on our forum, it is clear that the forum members don't use RL5/1446-1462 available online now.

Tony Wood for his well known list of claims used the filmed copies of these documents, partly poorly readable, so a certain amount of error was inevitable.
Jochen Prien and his co-authors of Jagdfliegerverbände volumes corrected some of Wood's errors, but they themselves made even more mistakes, some of which can only be explained by the difficulty of processing a huge amount of info. At least this is correct for the part I checked in detail - some months of 1943 in the Luftflotte 4 sector. Apparently, the main source of their сlaims lists were also microfilms of a partly poor quality.

I don't have the volumes "Luftwaffe Aces – Biographies and Victory Claims" by Johannes Mathews and John Foreman. From communicating with Johannes on our forum I have become convinced of his thoroughness and therefore think that these volumes are the best published source on the topic. But according to some his posts, he also used the filmed copies, with the ensuing consequences. I hope Johannes will correct me if I am wrong in this case.

BA MA copies are as good as possible. Thanks to this, it is possible to read even most of the records for April 1943, one of the months with the worst readability of the original. In some cases, reducing the brightness of the image helps. Some of these records used to appear in published works as "illegible".
In some cases "Abschussübersichten" helps to clarify the time of claims, as the readability of these documents is much better. These "Abschussübersichten" are also among the RL5 interval in question.

Availability of these documents online is a mini revolution.

A curious example. A few years ago Boris Ciglić and I discussed whether Uffz Hans Reiff (8./JG3) could confuse the Boston (as his claim on 20.4.43 near Gelendzhik appeared in published sources) with Che-2 (MDR-6) flying boat that he actually shot down. Now it turned out that he claimed GST Flugboot really, i.e. flying boat, although he was mistaken in the model.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Johannes]

Hi Andrey

You are certainly correct about the quality of the mikrofilms. April 1943 in the East was the worse, but I had them cleaned-up and put on disk, zooming in on dodgy area was a big help.

They match almost exactly flugbücher entries, though often missing one or two, but these can be explained as unconfirmed claims. At the moment I am working on about a thousand abschussmeldung reports, which also match the mikrofilms, and confirm some of those flugbuch entries as lacking witnesses.

Have been amassing claims from these three methods and also abschusstafel.and abschussliste.

The abschusstafel of JG27 has unconfirmed listed, but notes these, and sure enough the unconfirmed ones are missing from the mikrofilms, Werner Schroer is a good example.

Regarding confirmation "viermots" are a nightmare, some e.v seem to have been sonfirmed, even w.b, and most v.n.e-a.s.m were confirmed, h.s.s were usually unconfirmed.

Wilhelm Moritz was a great exponent of the "head on attacks" he would usually start his attack from 800 metres and only break-away at 50 metres, to put this into time just a few seconds, and I believe 50 metres represents a quarter of a second. Can't see how he could see the bomber go down, yet I have seen video footage of head-on attacks, the bomber appears to fly on, but put in extreme slow motion you can count the individual hits, and there are more than enough to be a fatal blow. Actually I cannot see the bomber doing any sort of avoiding turn, or the gunners returning fire.

Regard Prien, I find very few mistake, but his II./JG 2 Afrika file must have been mis-sorted as the details are correct, but pilots names are wrong.

Also some flugbücher have additional information. One JG51 pilots noted his konrades claims, I assume he was witness to them, he even recorded the claim number, one souch konrade was Heinz Marquardt, the inter mikrofilm claims mentioned are numbered exactly as per mikrofilm, those post mikrofilms do not match those previously accepted, therefore I before those from the flugnuch source.

Almost certainly what we have accepted for Gerhard Barkhorn post mikrofilms are "made-up" by Hans Ring as Daniel & Gabor Horvath sent e some official documents found whilst researching there book "Verified Victories " that contradicts these, which also explains why researchers that confirmed so strongly Barkhorn's honest claiming stated until he neared "300" then things changed, they changed because the information was false.

I believe Ring also faked the last pages of Johannes Steinhoff;s flugbuch. We can I think safely assume other fake documents are out there.

I have been using the Bundes mikrofilms on-line to look at the "200" names I could never identify, and have been having some success, it is easy to zoom in and print the name 100 x original size and compare them to other names to work-out the spelling. Funny enough just worked one out with Bernd Barbas an Oblt making only one claim, came back as Klemenz, hear again Hans Ring stated thirty-four claims, real total five, this guy was a former night-fighter pilot who strangely joins JG52, so it had taken twenty-three years to identify this pilots name, which was the last unidentified name I had for JG52.

There is still much work to be done.

Take Care

Johannes

[kaki3152]

In Theo Boiten's book "Nachtjadg Diaries Volume 2'. he is listed as Hptm Otto-Karl Klemenz - 3/NJG-1.12/NJG-5 and JG-52 - 3 night victories - 30 total victories- Survived war.

[Larry deZeng]

Andrey and Johannes,

Quick question: does the online RL5 documentation you discuss above include Flakartillerie claims with the battery and location identified?

Thanks,

L. deZ.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

Andrey and Johannes,

Quick question: does the online RL5 documentation you discuss above include Flakartillerie claims with the battery and location identified?

Thanks,

L. deZ.

I'm just looking at it now, and it does seem to. On my very limited reading, the pages of Flak and flying unit claims for each day more or less alternate.

P.S. Having seen the original pages, my admiration of Tony Wood's efforts is all the greater.

[Larry deZeng]

Thanks, Nick.

I have some of the "C" series (5 rolls of claims microfilms) so I'm familiar with this series. However, it seemed like Andrey and Johannes were discussing RL5 documents other than or in addition to the "C"-series rolls that Tony W. used. Maybe I'm mistaken in thinking that, but I hope not.

L. deZ.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hi Johannes,

Your post once again shows how deeply you dig into the topic. My aim in this case is much more limited - to find out the details of events in the periods and places I am interested in.

Originally Posted by Johannes

Regard Prien, I find very few mistake

For April 1943 (for example) well over 100 claim entries in JFV contain some kind of error (time, location, type of claimed aircraft etc).

Originally Posted by Johannes

but his II./JG 2 Afrika file must have been mis-sorted as the details are correct, but pilots names are wrong.

I found about the same shift in several entries for 16.3.43 in the East. And in this case the same mistakes made by both Wood and JFV. Maybe the film copy was smudged or something like that.

Originally Posted by Johannes

Almost certainly what we have accepted for Gerhard Barkhorn post mikrofilms are "made-up" by Hans Ring ... I believe Ring also faked the last pages of Johannes Steinhoff;s flugbuch. We can I think safely assume other fake documents are out there.

Amazing! Why did he do such shameful things?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Nick,

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Having seen the original pages, my admiration of Tony Wood's efforts is all the greater.

Absolutely agree!

Best regards,
Andrey

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Larry,

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

does the online RL5 documentation you discuss above include Flakartillerie claims with the battery and location identified?

Yes, but unfortunately without L.Qu.
Location like "bei Iwanowka" say nothing as there are hundreds of villages with this name in Russia.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Larry deZeng]

Thanks, Andrey. A comprehensive audit of Luftwaffe Flak claims is one of several large-scale projects still to be worked on, although Theo Boiten has got a good start on it with his multi-volume series Nachtjagd Combat Archive. I'm too old now, but I hope someone will eventually take it up and work on it.

L. deZ.