Messerschmitt W.Nr.

[srob48]

Hi,
I recently brought a excellent book called "Messerschmitt Bf 109 E" by Robert Peczkowski and published by MMP Books.

In the book, page.61 is a list of Bf 109E Construction Numbers (W.Nr.).

I will be honest, I have no idea how the W.Nr. system works!

For instance, Quote: W.Nr.2789 - 2806. Version E-4. Number produced 18. Factory Messerschmitt.
Ok, I understand that. But the next line is:
W.Nr.2941 - 2964. Version E-1. Number produced 24. Factory Arado.

Question 1: What was the 133 aircraft built between W.Nr.2807 - 2940?

Question 2: Did other Messerschmitt aircraft, ie. Bf108 W.Nr. fit in with these numbers, or did they have their own W.Nr. For example, was it possible for there to be a Bf109E-4 W.Nr.2790 and a Bf108 with the same W.Nr.?

Question 3: In an ideal world, it would seem logical that once the Bf109F began production, it would follow on from the last Bf109E. But we know Mölders flew Bf109 F-1, W.Nr.5628. And yet if we look at the list, we find another 686 Bf109E of various versions were built after the Bf109F began production (including E-1) from W.Nr.5791 which was a E-4/B, upto W.Nr.7696 which was a E-7.

Sorry for my ignorance, I just hope someone can make it all make sense!

Steve

[Stig Jarlevik]

Steve

To set the ball rolling, when RLM started to gear up for the war and combined with the Industry constantly building each others aircraft under licence it soon became obvious that sooner or later they would face the problem that various manufacturers used the same WNr for the same type of aircraft.

The WNr you quote has to be placed into each manufacturer's range, meaning WNr 2789 etc was in the Messerschmitt range and 2941 etc was in Arado's range. You cannot mix the two ranges together.

In the end RLM took over completely and assigned WNr centrally to the various factories to overcome this problem.

Question 1: Not home so cannot check
Question 2: Initially (before RLM took over) Messerschmitt used their own range and the Bf 108 was included in that range
Question 3: Not home so cannot check, but just because a new model appears, it is not always necessary that an older model is stopped immediately.

Cheers
Stig

[Rottler]

Hello Steve,

to your question 1: in the factory document „Übersichtsliste der Änderungsanweisungen“ (Messerschmitt AG Augsburg dated 1 July 1943) are listed
….
WNr. 2739-2788 Bf 109 E-3 Messerschmitt
WNr. 2789-2806 Bf 109 E-4 Messerschmitt
WNr. 2812-2940 Bf 109 D-1 Messerschmitt
WNr. 2941-2960 Bf 109 E-1 AGO Oschersleben.

Regards
Leo

[Rottler]

Hello Steve,

a clarification: the Bf 109 E serials are given in the overview list of the amendments from 1 July 1943.
The serials of the Bf 109 D-1 I have gathered from JFV Vol. 1 page 41 (blocks of known D-1 WNr.).

Regards
Leo

[srob48]

Thank you Stig and Leo. I did search through the Übersichtsliste der Änderungsanweisungen, dated 1.7.43 and wondered why I couldn't find any Bf109D's. Thank you for clearing that up.
I have only just started studying the above record, but there does seem to be a few anomalies, ie, it says Nr.207, Bf109F-1 W.Nr.5401 built by Arado, but after Nr.263, it refers to W.Nr.5401 as an F-2 (Maybe upgraded from F-1 to F-2?)

Anyway, thank you for letting me know about the "Übersichtsliste der Änderungsanweisungen", hopefully it will answer a few of my questions.
It would be nice to find a complete list of all Bf109 W.Nr from first to last!

[srob48]

Ok, running the W.Nr. of Messerschmitt Bf108, Bf109 and Bf110, it has now become clear that each type of aircraft had is own production W.Nr.
This means the Bf108, Bf109 and Bf110 could all have the same W.Nr.

A couple of examples of this are:
7th Oct 1940: 5(Schl)/LG2.
Messerschmitt Bf109E (2013). Sortie to England. Damaged by RAF fighter and crash-landed on return at Calais-Marck a/f, France. Pilot unhurt. Aircraft 50% damaged.
24th March 1941: Fl.Korps.I.
Messerschmitt Bf108 (2013). Crash landed at Aspern a/f, Austria. Crew unhurt. Aircraft 35% damaged.

and,
13th August 1940: 3/ZG26.
Messerschmitt Bf110C (3369). Escort sortie to England for Erpr.Gr.210, shot down by RAF Spitfires and crashed Warden Bay, Sheppey, Kent, 4.05pm. Oblt. Karl Fuchs (FF) (dated 16.8.40) and Uffz. Willi Ebben (Bf) both killed. Aircraft a write-off.
27th September 1940: 5/JG27.
Messerschmitt Bf109E (3369). Escort sortie to England. Shot down by RAF fighter and crashed at Lower Mays Farm, Selmeston, near Lewes, East Sussex, 9.25am. Gefr. Hans-Dieter John (FF) bailed-out and captured unhurt. Aircraft 11+ a write-off.

So I guess that answers one of my questions

[schwarze-man]

Originally Posted by srob48

Hi,


Question 1: What was the 133 aircraft built between W.Nr.2807 - 2940?

Question 2: Did other Messerschmitt aircraft, ie. Bf108 W.Nr. fit in with these numbers, or did they have their own W.Nr. For example, was it possible for there to be a Bf109E-4 W.Nr.2790 and a Bf108 with the same W.Nr.?

Question 3: In an ideal world, it would seem logical that once the Bf109F began production, it would follow on from the last Bf109E. But we know Mölders flew Bf109 F-1, W.Nr.5628. And yet if we look at the list, we find another 686 Bf109E of various versions were built after the Bf109F began production (including E-1) from W.Nr.5791 which was a E-4/B, upto W.Nr.7696 which was a E-7.

Steve

Hi Steve.

1. I do not know, sorry.

2. Different types could have the same number but, they would be the different types, eg Bf109 W.Nr. 2000 and Bf108 W.Nr. 2000 would be different aircraft, different types and, those ID's show that.

3. Aircraft production blocks and ID number allocations would always have anomalies. There was no attempt to sequentially number all production as they came off the production line or, in accordance with the chronological type designation. AFAIK, the numbers were allocated as the production was authorised and assigned. I believe that many production blocks were unbuilt, particularly in the later war years. Also, many rebuilds involved upgrade to a later type designation. Cheers

SM

[srob48]

Hope some of you might find this interesting. I have sorted the W.Nr for each type from E-1 to F4 into order from the Übersichtsliste der Änderungsanweisungen, dated 1.7.43. Some of the numbers over-run and some are duplicated, but it is how it was written in the original document.
Bf109D-1 I have tried to find from other souces, so is work in progress.

D-1 Production started with 0419.
D-1 Arado 2066-2080 15
D-1 Arado 2201-2325 125
D-1 Arado 2301-2310 10 sold to Switzerland.
D-1 Focke-Wulf 2511-2618 108
D-1 Messerschmitt 2812-2940 129

E-1 Messerschmitt 1778-1804 27
E-1 Messerschmitt 1927-1954 28
E-1 Arado 2655-2666 12
E-1 Arado 2667-2696 30
E-1 Ago 2941-2960 20
E-1 Fieseler 3171-3299 129
E-1 Ago 3300-3359 60
E-1 Arado 3333-3664 332
E-1 Arado 3854-3919 66
E-1 Focke-Wulf 4001-4090 90
E-1 Arado 4804-4975 172
E-1 Fieseler 6001-6500 500
E-1 Fieseler 7661-7696 36

E-3 Erla 667-756 89
E-3 Erla 761-807 47
E-3 Erla 811-877 67
E-3 Erla 885-993 109
E-3 Erla 1074-1659 586
E-3 Messerschmitt 1955-1979 25
E-3 Erla 1980-2063 84
E-3 Messerschmitt 2346 1
E-3 Messerschmitt 2349 1
E-3 Messerschmitt 2367 1
E-3 Messerschmitt 2371-2372 2
E-3 Messerschmitt 2382-2384 3
E-3 Messerschmitt 2387-2389 3
E-3 Messerschmitt 2417-2419 3
E-3 Messerschmitt 2433-2437 5
E-3 Messerschmitt 2443 1
E-3 Messerschmitt 2479-2482 4
E-3 Messerschmitt 2488-2490 3
E-3 Messerschmitt 2492-2497 6
E-3 Messerschmitt 2504 1
E-3 Messerschmitt 2508-2513 6
E-3 Messerschmitt 2622-2650 29
E-3 Messerschmitt 2728-2733 6
E-3 Messerschmitt 2739-2788 50
E-3 Erla 4091-4222 132
E-3 WNF 5001-5259 259

E-4 Messerschmitt 2789-2806 18
E-4 Messerschmitt 3701-3764 63
E-4 Messerschmitt 3701-3827 127
E-4 WNF 5260-5300 41
E-4 WNF 5326-5400 75
E-4 WNF 5559-5600 42
E-4 WNF 5791-5823 33
E-4 WNF 5891-5894 4
E-4 WNF 5896-5919 24

E-7 Messerschmitt 3765-3827 63
E-7 WNF 5895 1
E-7 WNF 5920-5985 66
E-7 WNF 6501-6523 23

T-2 Fieseler 7728-7797 70

F-1 Arado 5401-5436 36
F-1 Arado 5401-5558 158
F-1 Messerschmitt 5601-5608 8
F-1 Messerschmitt 5601-5620 20
F-1 Messerschmitt 5627-5790 164
F-1 WNF 6601-6650 50
F-1 WNF 6601-6771 171
F-1 WNF 6773-6783 11
F-1 Messerschmitt 8901-9001 101
F-1 Ago 12601-12602 2
F-1 Ago 12605 1
F-1 Ago 12601-12925 325
F-1 Ago 12601-12929 329

F-2 Arado 5401 1
F-2 Arado 5403-5558 156
F-2 Arado 5438-5439 2
F-2 Arado 5441 1
F-2 Arado 5443-5444 2
F-2 Arado 5456 1
F-2 Arado 5458-5459 2
F-2 Arado 5462-5463 2
F-2 Arado 5466-5467 2
F-2 Arado 5469-5471 3
F-2 Arado 5473 1
F-2 Arado 5476-5477 2
F-2 Arado 5479-5480 2
F-2 Arado 5482 1
F-2 Arado 5485-5486 2
F-2 Arado 5491 1
F-2 Arado 5499 1
F-2 Arado 5504-5528 25
F-2 Messerschmitt 5611-5616 6
F-2 Messerschmitt 5618-5630 13
F-2 Messerschmitt 5627-5790 164
F-2 Messerschmitt 5632-5639 8
F-2 Messerschmitt 5641-5645 5
F-2 Messerschmitt 5647-5654 8
F-2 Messerschmitt 5657-5659 3
F-2 Messerschmitt 5661-5665 5
F-2 Messerschmitt 5667-5671 5
F-2 Messerschmitt 5673-5679 7
F-2 Messerschmitt 5681-5683 3
F-2 Messerschmitt 5685-5701 17
F-2 Messerschmitt 5703-5706 4
F-2 Messerschmitt 5708-5714 7
F-2 Messerschmitt 5716-5718 3
F-2 Messerschmitt 5730 1
F-2 Messerschmitt 5734 1
F-2 Messerschmitt 5736 1
F-2 Messerschmitt 5738 1
F-2 Messerschmitt 5743-5744 2
F-2 Messerschmitt 5746-5751 6
F-2 Messerschmitt 5753-5754 2
F-2 Messerschmitt 5757 1
F-2 Messerschmitt 5763-5765 3
F-2 Messerschmitt 5779 1
F-2 WNF 6651-6771 121
F-2 WNF 6773-6783 11
F-2 WNF 6785-6800 16
F-2 WNF 6785-6822 38
F-2 Erla 8078-8086 9
F-2 Erla 8078-8130 53
F-2 Erla 8088-8106 19
F-2 Erla 8108-8109 2
F-2 Erla 8111-8114 4
F-2 Erla 8118-8122 5
F-2 Erla 8124-8125 2
F-2 Erla 8127-8128 2
F-2 Erla 8131 1
F-2 Erla 8133 1
F-2 Erla 8132-8262 131
F-2 Erla 8132-8266 135
F-2 Erla 8132-8806 675
F-2 Erla 8303-8332 30
F-2 WNF 8901-9001 101
F-2 Messerschmitt 8901-9001 101
F-2 Messerschmitt 8904 1
F-2 Messerschmitt 9151-9250 100
F-2 Arado 9535-9711 177
F-2 Arado 9535-9734 200
F-2 Ago 12601-12968 368
F-2 Ago 12608 1
F-2 Ago 12610 1
F-2 Ago 12614 1
F-2 Ago 12617 1
F-2 Ago 12619 1
F-2 Ago 12621 1
F-2 Ago 12623-12625 3
F-2 Ago 12627 1
F-2 Ago 12630-12635 6
F-2 Ago 12643 1
F-2 Ago 12648 1
F-2 Ago 12652 1
F-2 Ago 12654 1
F-2 Ago 12656 1
F-2 Ago 12658 1
F-2 Ago 12663-12664 2
F-2 Ago 12667-12668 2
F-2 Ago 12671 1
F-2 Ago 12674 1
F-2 Ago 12682 1
F-2 Ago 12718 1
F-2 Ago 12723 1
F-2 Ago 12755 1
F-2 Ago 12970-12978 9

F-4 WNF 7001 1
F-4 WNF 7003-7085 83
F-4 WNF 7087-7140 54
F-4 WNF 7087-7162 76
F-4 WNF 7164-7208 45
F-4 WNF 7210-7213 4
F-4 WNF 7210-7435 226
F-4 WNF 7215-7217 3
F-4 WNF 7227 1
F-4 WNF 7230-7234 5
F-4 WNF 7236 1
F-4 WNF 7437-7660 224
F-4 Erla 8267-8269 3
F-4 Erla 8271-8277 7
F-4 Erla 8279-8302 24
F-4 Erla 8333-8536 204
F-4 Erla 8333-8806 473
F-4 Erla 10001-10285 285
F-4 WNF 13001-13185 185
F-4 WNF 13057-13058 2
F-4 WNF 13187-13390 204

[Rasmussen]

Erla had built 168 Bf 109D-1 ... should be W.Nr. 419-539 and 619-665.

[srob48]

Thank you Rasmussen, I will add this information to the list.

Does anyone know how many E-0 were built and W.Nr ?