Losses German Bight 18.12.1939

[Jochen Prien]

Jörn,

you are of course right that in JG 77 Vol 1 - published in 1992 - based on German sources the August 13th, 1940, attack on Aalborg was described along the lines of the German reports which recorded an attack of 23 Blenheims as opposed to the 11 of 82 Sqn. which actually made it to Aalborg. Based on that number the Luftwaffe had no problems to confirm 15 claims of 5./JG 77. As a matter of fact 11 out of 11 Blenheims which reached their target were shot down and in the course of this melé there was some over-claiming on the part of 5./JG 77.

This has however been corrected in JFV Vol. 3, p.13 ( publ. in 2000 ), and is completely set straight in the substantially revised JG 77 unit history I'm working on as a side-line to the JFV series.

As for the actual RAF losses on December 18th, 1939, this is a subject that has yet to be finally addressed; the RAF attack and the German response fill almost a dozen pages in the revised JG 77 manuscript, based definitely not on secondary sources, and leaving a number of questions that have yet to be answered. It's simply too much to just pack in a short post here. JG 77 Vol. 1 is certainly outdated in many aspects, but the coverage of December 18th, 1939, still has its merits.

Regards

Jochen Prien

[Marius]

The "second formation" seems to have been seen by Olt. Berthold Jung from 5./JG 77. In a wartime account he stated about 16 bombers (12 + 4). This couldn`t have been the Helgoland formations.
Otherwise this strenght of bombers is confirmed by Luftlagebericht Nr.119 - 22 aircraft flying east (6 of them above ground at Norden to Wangerooge).

What I do not understand is the changed time of Jung`s unconfirmed victory. In JFV Teil 2 (p.474) 14.35 hours, in the older Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77 Teil 1 & Teil 4 14.50 hours. 15 minutes is a lot of time.
I mean 14.50 hours is more likely. So the older book about the JG 77 has indeed its merits.

A question especially to our British readers. Where were published the losses of OTU/OCU aircraft on this 18.12.1939?

Regards,

[Chris Goss]

Only operational Sqns took part

[Marius]

So what about the Squadrons 99, 115, 148, 214 & 215 ?
Surely enough to build a second formation of 22 Wellingtons...

[Andrei Demjanko]

Originally Posted by Marius

So what about the Squadrons 99, 115, 148, 214 & 215 ?

There was no operational flying by any of these squadrons on 18 December 1939

[Marius]

Source for that ???

Thanks,

[Chris Goss]

Without looking at Chorley & the book on 18 Dec 39 and looking at my notes written 20+ years ago for survivors of I/ZG 76:

9 Sqn took off at 0900 hrs with 9 ac. 5 were shot down (one came down off the English coast at 1530 hrs & crew were rescued) and 2 returned damaged (one landing at Sutton Bridge 1600 hrs, the other at North Coates)
37 Sqn took off around 0940 hrs with 6 ac. 5 were shot down. Survivor landed 1540 hrs
149 Sqn took off around 0927 hrs with 9 ac. Two RTB landing 1325 hrs. 2 were lost (one crashing in target area 1410 hrs, the other ditching 40-60 miles off Cromer 1505 hrs)

[Andrei Demjanko]

Originally Posted by Marius

Source for that ???

ORB's of squadrons mentioned

[Marius]

Thanks Andrei, but are you sure? For example Prien wrote something about the 148 Sqd, but without any details.

Chris,
149 Sqd with 9 (?) aircraft ? According to Shores only 6 (N2984,N2962,N2961,N2960,N2866,N2980).
Furthermore Shores means some aircraft did not land in England but have crashed:
9 Sqd - 1 crashed cat 3, 1 force-landed cat 2
37 Sqd - 1 crash-landed cat 3
149 Sqd - 3 crashed cat 2

How can arise such big differences?

[Andrei Demjanko]

Marius, yes, I'm absolutely sure.

It would be interesting to know what exactly Prien stated about participation of 148 Sqn, because at the time it was a Groop Pool Squadron, some sort of OTU into which that formation of the squadron evolved (15 OTU).

The unit had only three entries for December 1939 in its diary, these conserning moves and Christmas leave for personnel