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Old 8th April 2015, 07:08
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Trying to sort out photos of 9./JG27 losses on 18 Sept 1940

Hello,

Working on 9./JG27 Bf109 Profile packages for 2nd half of 1940.

Based upon research sent to me by Michael W. Payne decades ago, he provided identifications for these two photos:

"18 September 1940: 9./JG27 Messerschmitt Bf109E-1 (6327). Damaged in combat with Spitfires during escort sortie over Canterbury and belly-landed near Harringe Court at Sellindge 1.15 p.m. Possibly that attacked by P/O J. S. Morton of No.603 Squadron. FF Fw Ernst Schulz shot through left lung attempting to evade capture - admitted to hospital. Aircraft Brown 7 + 100% write-off.
Ernst Schulz was later transferred to the high-security ‘Luftwaffe Ward’ of the Royal Herbert Hospital in Woolwich where he died of his wounds on September 26."

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-FnG...-FnGKF9v-L.jpg

This photo was captioned as on display at an unknown location, and may have been originally copied from a newspaper.

and:

"18 September 1940: 9./JG27 Messerschmitt Bf109E-1 (2674). Petrol feed damaged in combat with Spitfires over Canterbury and belly-landed at Willow Farm, on the Royal St George’s Golf Links at Sandwich, 1.10 p.m. Possibly that attacked by F/O W. A. A. Read of No.603 Squadron. FF Gefr Walter Glöckner captured wounded. Aircraft Brown 1 + fired by pilot 100% write-off.
First aid panel liberated from the wreck by Cmdr Salmon, CO of the Royal Marine detachment based at the golf club, donated to Brian Bines in 1958."

I note that both Jochen Prien and the recent "Luftwaffe Crash Archive, Vol 4" also picks up this same ID. Looks like this "Parliament 109" was originally copied from a book. Peter Cornwell, however, is not convinced of the correct ID for these two photos.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-pkc...-pkcb8nD-L.jpg

Over the decades, I'm hoping that further photos of either of these two crashes have surfaced. Does anyone know any information or have photo sources that would help confirm that these are, in fact, the correct identifications for these two photos? Perhaps Brian Bines can help?

There is dispute as to whether 9./JG27 was using brown or yellow a/c numbers, and concentric prop spinner rings at this time, but I'll put that in a following post.

Can anyone help?
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Old 8th April 2015, 08:24
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Re: Trying to sort out photos of 9./JG27 losses on 18 Sept 1940

Larry,

Strong doubts about the second loss WNr.
2674 was a D-1 damaged during belly landing at Ulefoss in Summer 1940. "Weisse 45", JGr. Drontheim as far I know. WNr. is cristal clear on photo.
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Old 8th April 2015, 14:41
Merlin Merlin is offline
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Re: Trying to sort out photos of 9./JG27 losses on 18 Sept 1940

The WNr. for the second loss is correct.

In this numbering range some numbers were issued twice during Bf109 series production:
Bf109D WNr. 2664 to 2727 made by AGO an
Bf109E-1 WNr. 2655 to 2696 made by Arado.
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Old 8th April 2015, 15:28
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Re: Trying to sort out photos of 9./JG27 losses on 18 Sept 1940

OKAAAAYYY

Thanks Merlin.
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Old 8th April 2015, 17:01
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: Trying to sort out photos of 9./JG27 losses on 18 Sept 1940

Sorry Larry I cannot help much on this , the first aid panel from Glockners aircraft is stamped 2674 on the inside. I was in contact with Walter Glockner in 1980 and he said he set fire to his aircraft before being carried away. The first aid panel shows signs of fire damage with blistering on the outside and blackened on the inside except where the first aid pack was. it has one bullet hole fired from the rear. I believe it was Michael Payne who originally said the Parliament 109 was Glockners. The notes I had for the Schulz 109 said his aircraft was forced to land with little damage. The 109 in your first photo shows the first aid panel missing but the area around does not seem to have any fire damage so I do not think it was Glockners. The Parliament 109 looks more likely to have fire damage in the cockpit area. I have visited the Newspaper Library at Hendon but could not find any newspaper photos of the Glockner aircraft. If you PM a e-mail dress I can send photos of the panel,

Regards
Brian Bines

Last edited by Brian Bines; 9th April 2015 at 11:11. Reason: wrong name for Michael Payne
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Old 9th April 2015, 00:43
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: Trying to sort out photos of 9./JG27 losses on 18 Sept 1940

Thank you Merlin. Your post explains a lot. The mix of Bf 109D and Bf 109E in those WNr. series has had me doing some head scratching trying to make sense of the reported data as well.
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Old 9th April 2015, 01:18
Larry Hickey Larry Hickey is offline
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Re: Trying to sort out photos of 9./JG27 losses on 18 Sept 1940

Brian,

Thanx for the offer. We'll definitely like to take you up on you on this. I've sent you a PM with my direct email address. Do you have a better quality image of the "Parliament 109" photo?

Regards,
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