18/02/1941 Luftwaffe Caudron-Renault of Generalluftzeugmeister crash at Evere airfield

[Luc Vervoort]

Hi,

Looking for details about a Caudron-Renault which crashed on 18/02/1941 during take-off at Evere airfield (near Brussels). Was it a CR.714, Goéland,… ?

Many thanks and best regards

Luc

[rof120]

CR 714 was an abortive attempt by the French Air Force to use wooden "lightweitht fighters". They were used only for a short period in June 1940. The engine was too weak, the armament only 4 light machine-guns (7,5 mm). About 90 were produced. The Poles in France insisted on using these aircraft, classified as "non bons de guerre" by the Armée de l'Air (not combat-worthy) so they created the purely Polish Groupe de chasse I/145. They absolutely wanted to get at the throat of the much-hated Germans - at any cost it seems. They had an air battle with Do 17s and Me 109s on 9 June 1940 in the Vernon area (on the river Seine, not far from Évreux and Rouen) and lost 7 of their number with 3 pilots killed. They claimed several victories on Do 17s and Me 109s but it seems that this was more the result of errors. On 10 June one more CR 714 was lost, pilot badly wounded. Replacement CR 714s were not a problem, there were enough of them, but this unit was disbanded soon. As usual the German pilots reported a fight with "Moranes", almost the only French name they knew (sometimes for radial-engined Bloch 152s too). Germany delivered some CR 714s to the Finnish Air Force and there is one left today in a Finnish museum.

CR is short for Caudron-Renault because Renault had acquired the aircraft firm Caudron (Renault being mainly a firm producing cars and also many good tanks including numerous light tanks Renault R 35 and the super-heavy, deadly chars B and B1bis which 1940 were feared by German troops and tank crews (and rightly so). I think Renault produced some types of aero-engines too (please search on the Internet for details on CR and on Goéland). CR 714 and Goéland (CR 440-449) were equipped with engines made by Renault.

Both in France (after the French Campaign) and in the UK (after the Battle of Britain and afterwards) everybody interested in airpower and air war knows perfectly well that Polish airmen, in particular fighter pilots, were excellent pilots, extremely brave and very aggressive in combat, obtaining brilliant results. Unfortunately in 1940 France there were not enough excellent fighters for all of them but it should not be overlooked that within the Armée de l'Air Polish fighter pilots flew exactly the same aircraft types as the French and Czech: Morane 406s, Bloch 152s, Curtiss H-75s and Dewoitine 520s too. In some units (Groupes de chasse, 24-34 fighters each) they formed Polish sections (patrouilles in French) of 3 Polish fighters, sometimes 2 sections. I think Czech and later Polish fighter pilots were posted to various units according to the latter's needs and to military factors. Some people claim that Polish pilots were given the worst French aircraft. It is possible that they got this impression but it is simply not true. If it were true they would have been posted exclusively to units flying Morane 406s (which were not thaaat bad) and there would have not been one single Pole in units equipped with Dewoitine 520s (mainly GC I/3, II/3, II/7 and III/3), not even with (very successful) "Curtiss" fighters (Curtiss H-75), but they did fly both types in battle just as well as they flew MS 406s and Bloch 152s. They were credited with victories like all their comrades too. And, last but not least, they even were permitted to paint large POLISH nationality symbols on both sides of the fuselage, replacing the blue-white-red French roundels. They never enjoyed this privilege within the Brtitish Royal Air Force, not even 1944 or 1945. 1940 in England Polish pilots flew exclusively Hurricanes, never Spitfires, the British equivalent of the D.520.

The "Goéland" (CR 440 / 445 / 449) was a small, light, twin-engined transport and liaison aircraft, made of wood, produced in large quantities and used extensively by the Germans after they had invaded France. 2 aircrew, 6 passengers or 800 kg freight. The Armée de l'Air kept using it as well in the non-occupied 1/3 of France and in Africa, possibly elsewhere too. About 1,500 were produced including after June 1940 and even after WW II. Part of them were exported, and they were still used in the 1950's. It was an excellent and successful design.

[Juha]

Hello rof120
very interesting.
One small correction, the Finnish C.R. 714s, 6 in number, were given to Finns by the French Governement.

[rof120]

Originally Posted by Juha

Hello rof120
very interesting.
One small correction, the Finnish C.R. 714s, 6 in number, were given to Finns by the French Governement.

- Oh, thanks Juha.

Later Germany sent (or sold - for money…) French fighters to Finland.

[Juha]

Yes, MS 406s, French gave 30 and Germany sold 57, incl a few 410s. Germany also sold to us Hawk-75As (44) ex-French and ex-Norwegian.

[Carl-Fredrik Geust]

The "Finnish" CR 714 (coded CA-556) is since 2015 on loan to the Polish Aviation Museum in Krakow (CA-556 is formally owned by the Finnish Military Museum).

Finland received six CR 714 fighters from France in spring 1940, intended for the Polish fighter Squadron, which was set up in France from Polish AF refugees during the Finnish-Soviet Winter War 1939-1940. The Polish aviators were literally on their way to Finland when peace was signed 13 March 1940.
Up to 80 CR 714 fighters were earmarked for the Polish squadron, and sent separately to Finland. Most of these CR 714s were still in France on 13 March 1940. The delivery of these aircraft was immediately cancelled, but six fighters had already left France, and ultimately arrived in Finland.

After tests in Finland in summer 1940, the CR 714 was considered unsuitable for Finnish environment (low power engine, weak armament, long takeoff run, no winter adaption etc), and the six delvered aircraft were never used operationally.

It is however good to know that one CR 714 is preserved, reminding us of the French and Polish willingness to assist Finland in the Winter War.

[Luc Vervoort]

Dear all,


Many thanks for the many interesting replies received.


The possibility that it was a CR.714 seems to be very small.


The unit of this plane was a rather special one. Any details available about the aircraft they used ?


The name ‘ Caudron-Renault’ used in the German document (Flugzeuganfälle und Verluste bei Schulen usw.) is different than the one which was used in the same type of documents for the Goéland, which was named C 445.


A few Caudron Simoun were also used by the Germans, so they are also a possibility ?


Best regards


Luc

[rof120]

Dear all,

Many thanks for the many interesting replies received.

The possibility that it was a CR.714 seems to be very small.

- Oh yes, certainly very small, I'd say as small as nought. In February 1941 the Germans had no reason to risk a pilot's life in an AC which was a failure.

The unit of this plane was a rather special one. Any details available about the aircraft they used ?

- Which unit please? In any case I have no idea. Our Belgian and Dutch friends possibly know.

The name ‘ Caudron-Renault’ used in the German document (Flugzeuganfälle und Verluste bei Schulen usw.) is different than the one which was used in the same type of documents for the Goéland, which was named C 445.

- Both is correct. The first one is the name of the firm, the second one is the type designation, the C of course meaning Caudron.

"Fluzeuganfälle" with an A is not correct, it should read Flugzeugunfälle with a U instead (aircraft accidents).

A few Caudron Simoun were also used by the Germans, so they are also a possibility ?

- Certainly yes. In the 1920's (???) and in the 1930's Caudron made various AC, all of them more or less successful (except CR 714), like Caudron Luciole, Rafale and others (?).

"Rafale" is France's first-line fighter and combat AC today, made by Dassault not by Caudron any more.

An Internet-search on Caudron, perhaps together with avions (aircraft) will certainly yield a lot of texts and pictures. The firm Caudron was created very early in the XXth century (before WW one).

Good luck to you.