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Old 4th October 2006, 11:40
Brian Brian is offline
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Ensigns captured by the Germans in France 1940

Hi guys

I have read that BOAC Ensigns G-ADSZ Elysian and G-AFZV Enterprise were both captured in France in May 1940, fitted with Daimler-Benz engines and used by the Luftwaffe to transport VIPs. Is this correct? Any further details available?

Cheers
Brian
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Old 4th October 2006, 12:57
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Jaap Woortman Jaap Woortman is offline
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Re: Ensigns captured by the Germans in France 1940

See http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?
Captured British planes and contact Patrick.

Jaap
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Old 4th October 2006, 13:31
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Re: Ensigns captured by the Germans in France 1940

Two Ensigns were left in France:
- G-ADSZ "Elysean": straffed by 109s at Merville (23.05.40)
- G-ADSX "Ettrick": damaged by a bomb and abandonned at Le Bourget (01.06.40)
British sources state that it was scuttled but nothing is sure.
What is sure, however, is that the Germans should have had some problems in flying this Mk. I equipped with Tiger engines they had no spares for.

A third one was captured at Marseille-Marignane when the Germans overran the so-called "Free Zone" in Nov. 42. It was G-AFZV "Enterprise" that fell into Vichy French hands near Nouakchott (Mauritania), on Feb. 3rd 1942. Captain Houston ditched his a/c on the shore and it was eventually flown to France as F-BAHD on early October 1942.
Air France was most interested in this type because of its long range and high payload.
When it fell into German hands, DLH said they were only interested in its engines (Wright Cyclones) to maintain their fleet of DC-3s. F-BAHD was scrapped in Dec. 43, which is certified by an Air France document dated 31.03.44.
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Old 4th October 2006, 13:43
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
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Re: Ensigns captured by the Germans in France 1940

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
Hi guys

I have read that BOAC Ensigns G-ADSZ Elysian and G-AFZV Enterprise were both captured in France in May 1940, fitted with Daimler-Benz engines and used by the Luftwaffe to transport VIPs. Is this correct? Any further details available?

Cheers
Brian

Brian

You should become a member of Air Britain as this subject came up recently on the Air Britain Information Exchange and thoroughly bebunked...

It is too long a correspondence to be posted here.. I will PM you but the highlights are:


G-ADSZ Elysian - Destroyed at Merville - Research in the German archives found that Lufthansa showed interest in the engines of an Ensign (referred to as Armstrong) for fitting to their DC3s but no mention of FZV, or any other Ensign, being re-engined.

G-AFZV Enterprise - NOT captured in France in 1940. This was forced down 300 miles north of Bathurst on the West African coast by engine trouble and abandoned [3.2.42]. 'Enterprise' was later repaired by the French and flown to Vichy France, eventually falling into German hands. This is probably the one that ended up in Finland

The other Ensign in France in 1940 was G-ADSX Ettrick

G-ADSX Ettrick was destroyed by the British military authorities after being damaged. Photo Evidence: (Air Enthusiast, Sep/Oct 97, p 77)

The important bit is WHY waste time and effort on fitting 1 or possibly 2 aircraft with 4 DB Engines, when you have no other airframe spares.. So much easier getting some Ju52s!

The Wright Cyclone Ensign engines were probably more valuable as pares for the Luftwaffe DC3's than the aircraft themselves!
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Old 4th October 2006, 14:21
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Re: Ensigns captured by the Germans in France 1940

I don't agree.
You should have read my post.
"Enterprise" could not have been flown in Germany since it was scrapped in France.
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Old 4th October 2006, 15:27
Brian Brian is offline
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Re: Ensigns captured by the Germans in France 1940

Many thanks Jaap, Chris & Paul (interesting PM, thanks)

There still seems to be some confusion!

Cheers
Brian
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Old 4th October 2006, 16:46
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
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Re: Ensigns captured by the Germans in France 1940

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJE
I don't agree.
You should have read my post.
"Enterprise" could not have been flown in Germany since it was scrapped in France.
Firstly

I was writing my response when you posted your reply, and did not read it until after my response was posted,, However, the source for the 'Enterprise' in Germany was an artricle

"Ensigns for the Empire - in Aeroplane Monthly" - the date was April 1979, page 179-182:

It stated

"Tested by the German Air Ministry with Daimler-Benz engines, and is believed to have been used as a transport for senior officers, and visited Finland, but no photographs have been found to confirm its use by the Germans."

An older article said " subsequently being used as German V.I.P.
transports, one at least being seen as far afield as Finland ..."
BOAC at War - Aeroplane Monthly, August 1975

The 1979 article may have made use of the 1975 one.. They were by different authors.....


I agree it did not have Daimler-Benz engines fitted.. But did an Ensign ever visit Finland and if so which one is this?

Last edited by paulmcmillan; 4th October 2006 at 17:18.
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