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  #1  
Old 17th October 2020, 13:47
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Stunning German Photo Album

Hello,

Currently on ebay is a very nice photoalbum at:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Fotoalbum-1-...EAAOSwXORfitG9

I have rarely, if ever seen a photo album of this quality.

Regards,

Clint
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  #2  
Old 17th October 2020, 17:02
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Stunning German Photo Album

Agree Clint

What do you make out of the aircraft then?
There is a lot to ponder about if you ask me.

Very odd Bestellnummer, those C.13/18, C.14/18, C.20/18 (and probably C.9/18 as well. They simply don't exist anywhere that I can find.
Are all of them Rumplers?

Also some odd biplanes with early Pfalz fins. What do you make of those?

Intermixed with Fokker Dr.I and Halberstadt CL.II it is a very interesting album indeed.

Pity the seller is just out for the money....
Anyway it leaves me with more questions than answers....

Cheers
Stig
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  #3  
Old 17th October 2020, 17:15
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Stunning German Photo Album

Hi Stig,

Glad you like it and take the trouble to say so. Thanks.

I've been thinking about the aircraft numbers you refer to, and I can't really do any better than suggest that they are particular to the school. As far as I can recall I don't believe I've seen anything of the like before.Can you see the /18 on C.20, I was slightly tempted, but no more than that to assume it was Albatros C.I C.20/15.I'm not looking at the image while I type, so if its another Rumpler you'll just have to imagine my embarrsasment.Also of course,as you'll know, as far as is known no 1918 C series serials earlier than C.100/18 were issued.

I am pretty sure that the biplanes are Halberstadt B.I and I am therefore inclined to believe that the machines, given the non-military nature of the numbering belong to the Halberstadt flying scholl in one of its iterations as we've touched on before. Are we seeing photos from the album of a flying instructor, and if so, from more than one school? Certainly the Rumpler aircraft with the unusual (non) Bestellnummern resemble nothing I've seen before from FEA 5..

With regard to the CL.II photo, interesting I thought that the Halberstadt B.Is were still about as can be seen from an aircraft in the rear of the photo.

Regards,

Clint
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  #4  
Old 18th October 2020, 13:41
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Stunning German Photo Album

Thanks Clint

The Halberstadt B-types I have seen all have the D-fighter types fins.
Only one differ and that was a pre-war model.

I don't have the Aeronaut book....yet.

I am notoriously lousy in identifying German indifferent two-seaters, so I pass with regard to your comment of type...., but it is puzzling isn't it with those Bestell numbers? The main number is repeated in large digits as well on the fuselage.

Must have something to do with their training capacity, and who knows, probably outside the normal channels.

Very intriguing.
Cheers
Stig
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  #5  
Old 18th October 2020, 13:58
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Stunning German Photo Album

Hi Stig,


Well yes, both the B.II & B.III have the type of tail featured on the D types. However, if you recall the thread when we touched upon the Halberstadt Fokker, early Halberstadt aircraft were a bit prone to borrowing elements from other aircraft, specificically the Fokker M.10. Perhaps german commercial lawyers were a bit less litigious than their anglo-saxon counterparts?


With regard to the numbers on the Rumplers, for what ever reason either the Bestellnummer has been amended to reflect the large number on the fuselage or vice versa - not that this accounts for the /18 which is the really puzzling element to my mind. Looking at the fuselage crosses this doesn't appear to have occured in 1918 which would at least account for the /18. Is there any case for asking Kees if he's seen anything like this before? Were it not for the /18 it is tempting to wonder if the 13,14 etc don't represent the final two digits of the original Bestellnummer.A rather remote possibility but could the aircraft be 1918 built Rumpler C.I whose actual number is ??13/18 and ??14/18 for example from the C.I (Mark) batch C.3000/18 to 3149/18? Edit but having said that the fuselage cross wouldn't fit. I should try and avoid stream of conscious thinking. I've just looked at a photo of C.I (Mark) 3042/18 in Propeller Blatt 8 P.291 and it has the 'new' type of Baalkenkreuz.



Regards,


Clint
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  #6  
Old 19th October 2020, 12:19
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Stunning German Photo Album

Hi Clint

With regard to the training units, I think it is no use trying to identify when and where by looking at paint schemes, crosses and such things.
I doubt very much these units gave a toss about front line regulations.

I have talked to Kees, who is also very impressed by this album, even if he feels EUR 2000 is way too much, but then again who doesn't?

He agrees with you about the Halberstadts, and advise most of the C.xx/18 are Rumpler C.I. One exception, the C.20/18 is a DFW C.V

He is convinced it is a training unit, possibly two different ones, but has no theory with regard to the odd "Bestellnummern" visible.

I am beginning to harbour a thought that some aircraft were simply ordered outside the military Bestellnummer system, and in this present case were given a "phony" number just to resemble the mainstream one.

Cheers
Stig
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  #7  
Old 20th October 2020, 23:44
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Stunning German Photo Album

Hi Stig,


Thanks for contacting Kees and interesting to hear his thoughts.


I would agree that some aircraft were ordered outside the Bestellnummer system when intended for civilian run flying schools. The Halberstadts in this album being a case in point.Some aircraft were later given substitute Bestellnummern later after being taken over by the Army from civilian managed flying schools and examples are known. I'm rather more dubious about this being the case for Rumpler C.I or the DFW C.V though.The reason I think that this is unlikely, is that unlike A or B types taken over from civilian run flying schools, I think I'd be correct in saying that there is no evidence of C machines being operated by civilian schools in the first case. Were that to change I might revise my views.


As a side remark I rather imagine army run schools very much followed the regulations with regard to serials and national markings in most cases, if anything the frontline units had less time to worry about changes.. Just not this one!



I would agree that the C**/18 numbers shown are intended to resemble normal Bestellnummern though.Its just that the motivation for doing it in this manner remains open to question.It appears not unlike the aircraft with Bavarian serials later being given serials that resembled the Prussian system.


My remarks about the fuselage crosses reflect only the fact that they are not the later type of Balkenkreuz adopted in March 1918.It could be that the serials were applied in 1918,but prior to March. As for the where, no clue for the C**/18 machines, but I would suggest for aircraft operated without national markings or Bestellnummern, Halberstadt and FEA5 does appear logical for a school operating Halberstadt B.I machines.


Regards,


Clint
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  #8  
Old 21st October 2020, 10:41
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Stunning German Photo Album

Hi Clint

The main problem all of us face is that we have no dates listed anywhere.
We don't know if the Halberstadts are survivors into the 1917-18 period.
We don't know if the /18 is an indication of 1918 or not. Logic says they are, but we have no 100% proof of that.

As said earlier, I would say it is impossible to be certain of any year/date when it comes to aircraft used by schools. Even if school aircraft crashed often, they were most likely rebuilt just as fast and no doubt lasted quite a bit longer than frontline aircraft, so it is no use just saying "Oh Halberstadt B.I, it must be very early training days in the beginning of the war", because we don't know that.

I am pretty convinced the ex manufacturers schools were using C-models as well. The further on in time we get, the difference between a B-type compared to the C-type became more and more pronounced. The latter became heavier and heavier, more marginal when it came to control, and much more specialized.
BTW there were no civil schools during the war. As soon as the short transition period was over, they were all controlled by the Army and Navy.
In the present case, Kees (and I) are very convinced the C-types using the /18 numbers and seen here are used by a training unit.

Whatever is the truth here, we certainly can agree, it is a most interesting album and it has raised a number of interesting questions with a very healthy and interesting discussion in its footsteps.

Cheers
Stig
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  #9  
Old 21st October 2020, 13:56
musec04 musec04 is offline
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Re: Stunning German Photo Album

Hi Stig,


As you said an interesting album and an interesting discussion.Being now guest free let me address a few of your points from the last post.


The main problem all of us face is that we have no dates listed anywhere.
We don't know if the Halberstadts are survivors into the 1917-18 period.
We don't know if the /18 is an indication of 1918 or not. Logic says they are, but we have no 100% proof of that.


We do know that the Halberstadt B.I survived until at least 1917 as the CL.II underwent Typenprüfung in May 1917 and entered service in August of that year.


As said earlier, I would say it is impossible to be certain of any year/date when it comes to aircraft used by schools. Even if school aircraft crashed often, they were most likely rebuilt just as fast and no doubt lasted quite a bit longer than frontline aircraft, so it is no use just saying "Oh Halberstadt B.I, it must be very early training days in the beginning of the war", because we don't know that.


Nobody has said that these photos are definitely early war.Please don't create straw dolls.The bottom line is, that if we used only written information rather than information we can reasonably deduce from what we can see in the photos- for example the photo of the CL.II or the known date of the change to the Balkenkreuz-we couldn't say anything.Why bother posting photos if not for the evidence we can gain from them.Speculation can be supported by visual evidence.



I am pretty convinced the ex manufacturers schools were using C-models as well. The further on in time we get, the difference between a B-type compared to the C-type became more and more pronounced. The latter became heavier and heavier, more marginal when it came to control, and much more specialized.




If manufacturers schools were operating C type aircraft without regular army Bestellnummern it seems a little strange that we have seen no photographic examples of this. Bear in mind that in 1918 a number of C class machines were being ordered specifically as trainers and the Rumpler C.I was one of these.While absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence your ‘I’m pretty convinced’ appears to be without any basis. Yes C types were used as trainers, but we have plentiful evidence of this for military run schools, but none for manufacturer run schools.If you have any evidence that would support C types being operated by manufacturers schools I very much look forward to seeing it and I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.




BTW there were no civil schools during the war. As soon as the short transition period was over, they were all controlled by the Army and Navy.
As I have previously pointed out civilian managed flying schools operated until the war’s end.I’m not sure why you are having trouble accepting this. But once again see precisely for Halberstadt: frontflieger.de/2-fshalberstadt.html Note that this is a separate entity from the military FEA 5: frontflieger.de/2-fea05.html. Please take a look at the lower half of this page with the Werks Militär Fliegerschulen paying particular attention to the date the schools were established. No short transistion period and some founded in 1915.


In the present case, Kees (and I) are very convinced the C-types using the /18 numbers and seen here are used by a training unit.




Who was ever arguing anything different?


Whatever is the truth here, we certainly can agree, it is a most interesting album and it has raised a number of interesting questions with a very healthy and interesting discussion in its footsteps.


Totally agree.

Regards,


Clint
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  #10  
Old 21st October 2020, 15:08
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Stunning German Photo Album

Clint

Good point about the CL.II, which does give us a time frame.

While the Frontflieger.de site is pretty good, it lacks enormously in detail.
The date listed for Halberstadt for instance cannot have anything to do with them opening up their own civil flying school. Neither am I at all convinced about the existance of many schools having the same FEA number.
Also if you look at the dates (or rather the non-existance of them) when the so called Werks Fliegerschulen were created, you will see he basically have no dates anywhere. Halberstadt is pretty much the only company where he actually states a date at all!

I have no idea what the date 19.9.1914 actually is, but there is no way a civil flying school would open up one month plus after WW 1 had begun in earnest and set almost all of Europe ablaze. Possibly the date may relate to when the German Army took control of it. Also if you check the site, there is basically no details about that school what-so-ever.

Every pre-war German major aircraft manufacturer opened up a flying school (and so did everyone else in Europe). To attract customers, teach them how to fly, and after that hopefully sell their own product was basically their only way to survive, unless someone was willing to showel out money just for the fun of it. Halberstadt started up their business in 1912, and it would surprise me enormously if they did not open up some sort of school shortly after. All they had to do was to look and learn how everyone else did it. It is up to you if you accept the date 14.9.1914 as a date when Halberstadt opened up a "civil school", but I don't. I don't know in detail how these Werke schools operated, but I am totally convinced they were controlled by the militaries, even if nominally led by a civilian (owner).

Nothing strange that FEA 5 (which was based in Hannover) had nothing to do with the Halberstadt school (based in Halberstadt no doubt) since they must have been 30 - 40 miles apart. No idea why the site we refer to keeps saying that the Halberstadt school also was known as FEA 5. Makes no sense to me and I need far better proof than such a statement to believe that. Document please!

So far, you have not produced one convincing aspect to the odd Bestellnummer, visible on the Rumpler C.I and DFW C.V aircraft. They are actually my main interest in this album, since the aircraft without Bestellnummer can be readily explained, as we (you) already have done.
So for the time being I still believe these C-types were operated by some training unit outside the mainstream German Army ones. So not FEA 5 at Hannover! Which one, I have no idea, your guess is as good as mine, perhaps even better

Cheers
Stig
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