Question about Fw. Walter (Paul) Bracke (Brake) 8./JG51

[Chris Goss]

Tony is British (with quite some experience in this field over many years) as far as I was aware! His work was groundbreaking allowing others to improve on it over the years

[Nokose]

If anyone has every worked with microfilm you can understand how hard it is to read it sometimes. Even in the Russian OBD files it is hard to read some of them (slight move of the camera taking the picture and words become blurred). Prien's JFV series is very good but they make mistakes also. I still use Tony Woods list to verify some of the JFV data and found it actual matches Soviet VVS data in locations were the JFV is off. Tony Woods had to have put in a lot of long hours copying the data and then putting it into the computer for everyone to use. There is some wrong information by both but some of it could have been entered by Luftwaffe clerks at the time (interruption while typing or just a bored moment). Recently as Kirche has seen in Soviet files of the deaths of Soviet pilots placed on the wrong days in the OBD but correct in the reports.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Guys

I am not trying to point a finger at anyone, least of all to either Tony, Jochen or Johannes.

All I am trying to do is to find out if there really was a pilot named Paul Brake (which Tony states) or if this is a possible misreading for Walter Bracke (which Jochen and Johannes believe)

I am also interested to find out why Johannes is convinced two victory claims are duplicated while Jochen is equally convinced they are not.

If anyone don't understand the problems and huge efforts which goes behind any research, whatever field it may be, should just try it for themselves!

Cheers
Stig

[kirche]

Gentlemens,
Sorry, I was wrong. Tony is a British of course.
I don't want to catch Tony in errors or irregularities. His "claims list" - it is a Great work. Everyone makes mistakes - good if you have alternative data.
About the materials TsAMO hard to judge (to read them and pull from them the truth is very difficult even for Russian researchers; how to do non-native speakers of the Russian language I have no idea). Errors in names, titles, dates, numbers of aircraft and engines are standard for any documents of those years (and if document above for instance, then more mistakes).
Was the pilot Paul Brake or was only Walter Bracke? Until you have found the primary sources (documents Luftwaffe) - it is rather a matter of faith (but we must remember both). Maybe Jochen Prien found them.

Best regards,
Kirill

[Merlin]

I have found no data for a fighter pilot with name Paul Brake - no losses, no claims and no other flights.

[Johannes]

Hi Stig

I make the two claims for 24th February by Helmut Brunke. If you have ever seen the micro films your know how difficult they can be to read......both quality and handwriting. Regarding Tony Woods, same explanation, also he has less(in my opinion) knowledge of who flew for what staffel, and reads micro film how it is written, rather than who it should be.

Each Staffel's losses are the biggest help to establish who flew for each Staffel!

Regards

Johannes

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Johannes

That is interesting indeed.
As a matter of fact I do have some experience with micro filmed items, but those items were both well written and typed. Unfortunately for me the topics were rather boring.

From what I understand the German micro filmed records are indeed hard to read and interpret so your input in this matter is both interesting and valuable.

From yours and Merlin's answer I think we can bring to conclusion there was no Paul Brake. However since Jochen Prien and his team obviously believe that "your" Helmut Brunke is in fact "their" Walter Bracke, presumably from looking at the same microfilm, we sort of end up in a dead lock.

The obvious question is of course if you or anyone else have any other records of this Helmut Brunke? Are there for instance any loss records of this person?

For the time being I will put your suggestion within brackets in Prien's book. Perhaps something will show up at a later stage to confirm this pilot.

Thanks for your great efforts Johannes (got your books!)
Really appreciated

Cheers
Stig

[Johannes]

Hi Stig

Thanks for the compliment, and purchasing John and my book, and using it for what we intended.....reference/debate. We will try in a few years to do a second edition.....iron-out the typo's, error's and add in additional pilots and data.

With JG 51 at this time there are two micro films, one general to all units, daily, and the second just JG 51 and a few AG units. JG 51 also listed many times the forenames, I will check Bracke/Brunke.

Prien's work is indeed impressive, but he doesn't read the micro films....that'll be Herr Bock.....he is in my opinion 99.8% accurate, but his II./JG 2 lists for Africa during 1942 are all wrong. I believe his excel became mis-sorted. The correct data is there, but wrong pilots. Anyway nobody is perfectly correct, and even if they were there are error's in the micro films, and even if these are established typo errors are just a fact of printing.....even after proofing!

I'll see if I can find a Paul Brake in losses.....but I suspect not.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Maxim1]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

The obvious question is of course if you or anyone else have any other records of this Helmut Brunke? Are there for instance any loss records of this person?

According to my notes, he was killed on 13.03.1943 with JG 51. No other info, though.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Johannes and Maxim

Indeed "even" Prien lists Uffz Helmut Brunke as lost on 13.3.1943

However I made of course a cardinal error yesterday when not checking Johannes book since sure enough, there he is, page 164 in vol 1 listed as Uffz/Fw Helmut Brünke. It should also be noted that Prien et al also list Brunke at various other dates.

Johannes
Quick question then of course, do we maintain the umlaut or not? It seems you, at least here, prefer him without the double dots...

Cheers
Stig