USAAF Survivors from Sinking of Italian Submarine Narvalo - 14 Jan. 1943

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by edwest2

From joebaugher.com No MACRs mentioned.

41-7582
7582 (2 FTS) crashlanded 5 mi Ne of Berteaux, French Morocco Dec 28, 1943

This is an odd statement by Baugher

The T in FTS indicates trainer/training, and there was nothing called that in North Africa at the time.
There was a 2 FS (52 FG) operating at this stage, but they flew Spitfires, not P-38.

There is of course a fundamental problem to much of the USAAF early days in the region.
The reporting system did not work well enough, at least not with regard to aircraft lost.
For some reason it seems to have effected the fighter units the most. The losses of the actual aircraft are not recorded against the pilot (s) in question.
That is the reason so many USAAF serial numbers are missing in the MAW volume.
No point in looking at the record cards either, since their SOC dates has nothing to do with the actual dates lost.

The present B-17F is most likely in such a category. In a way I can understand the lack of a MACR since the loss possibly ended up "between two chairs" and was never issued, and when most of the crew was rescued someone perhaps thought "what's the point"?
But it is irritating there is no claim from either German or Italian files. Very odd.

Alex
From where does your details regarding the P-38 41-7582 come from? It would be nice to tie up Lentz loss with a correct serial number!

Cheers
Stig

[Leendert]

Just FYI that Lt Donald M. Bryan flew as pilot with 97th BG, 340th BS later in 1943.

Biskra, main B-17 base early 1943, was bombed by the Luftwaffe on 3 Jan 1943.

Regards,
Leendert

[Frank Olynyk]

One reason for the lack of MACRs for aircraft lost in 1942 and early 1943 is that the MACR system did not start until July 1, 1943. MACRs for losses before that date were prepared from the information on hand after that date. If a squadron or group had changed bases more than once (before July 1, 1943) how much of their documentation was dragged along to the new base?

Enjoy!

Frank.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Good point Frank

But surely there must have been some reporting system for loss of aircraft, otherwise the units would run out of aircraft in the end.

It certainly explains the lack of connection between serial numbers and crews but it does not explain the seemingly big gap where we don't know exactly when a certain aircraft had been lost. Somewhere such a loss must have been reported.

Cheers
Stig

[Alex Smart]

Hello Stig,
Some years ago I traced dozens of P38's and F-4s and 5's.
Have some of it still on paper, but sadly now there is no reference details attached , so do not now know how or where it came from. Only possible link may be that it was his assigned a/c when bringing the P38's over from the USA, but I have now no idea if that was the case. "Bolaro" I think the opp was named ?

Some of the pre MACR date ( that Frank highlights ) losses can perhaps be found within those MACR's in the 16000 series.

Thanks for your input
Keep safe
Alex

[Edward]

Ernie Pyle to the rescue!

A search for information about the Devers' crew, who bailed out of their B-17 on 3 January 1943, turned up more information [AHMAW vol. 3 page 236].

Apparently three B-17Fs took off on January 3rd and were unable to find Biskra airdrome.

Two pilots made force landings after being attacked by Axis fighters.

Lt. Devers continued but after running out of gas had the crew bail out. They reached Allied lines on 10 January and were assigned to the 97th BG.

2nd Lt. Jesse L. Coalter - B-17F #42-5357 (force landing. Crew Captured Jan. 4. Plane later bombed and strafed by P-40 fighters)

2nd Lt. Harry M. Devers - B-17F #42-5227 Bucket of Bolts (crew safely bailed out and reached Allied lines)

1st Lt. Bedford E. Russell - B-17F #42-5142 Nameless[?] (force landing - plane burned by crew. Crew captured Jan. 3)

B-17F #42-5227 Bucket of Bolts
"crew bailed out over friendly territory,
Crew reached Biskra January 10, assigned 97th BG."
Source: Dave Osborne, B-17 Fortress Master Log

1st Lt. Harry M. Devers - Pilot (Martinsburg, West Virginia)
2nd Lt. Richard Banning - Co-Pilot (Britt, Louisiana)
2nd Lt. Charles Watt - Navigator (Jacobsburg, Ohio)
2nd Lt. Victor Coveno - Bombardier (Cleveland, Ohio)
Sgt. W. K. Thiams - (Fayetteville, NC)
Sgt. Joseph Obradovich - (Lacrosse, Wis.)
Sgt. Richard Hasbrough - (Brooklyn, NY)
Sgt. Harry Alsaker - (Montana)
Sgt. Robert Oberon - (Cresline, Ohio)

A History of the Mediterranean Air War 1940-1945: Volume Three
Tunisia and the End in Africa November 1942 - May 1943
(Grub Street 2016)- page 238

Tuesday, 5 January 1943
"On this date an Ultra intercept recorded that a captured B-17[Lt. Coalter] had been strafed and destroyed by two P-40s. During a raid [on 5 January] one such aircraft from the 97th Bomb Group had been reported lost east of Biskra, fate unrecorded. Similarly, a second of the unit's aircraft [Lt. Russell or Lt. Devers] had failed to return from an unspecified area of Tunisia two days earlier on the 3rd."

On January 10th the 97th BG B-17 lost on the 5th was bombed & strafed 3 miles NW of Kebili by two P-38s.
_________________________

"A Desert Saga"
By Ernie Pyle
The Tribune (Scranton, Pennsylvania)
29 January 1943, Friday - page 4
A FORWARD AIRDROME IN FRENCH NORTH AFRICA (By Wireless)
"Nine American boys have Just had a unique baptism of war.

They left America very recently on a bomber bound for the African front. They arrived here a little later, by camelback, after an incredible series of adventures, Including a battle with German fighter planes. Here is the story:

A Flying Fortress commanded by Lieut. Harry Devers of Martinsburg, W.Va., took off from America during the holidays and flew without incident across, the Atlantic and to the coast of Africa. Devers' crew of eight was composed of Lieut Richard Banning of Britt, La., copilot; Lieut. Charles Watt, Jacobsburg, Ohio, navigator; Lieut. Victor Coveno, Cleveland, and five sergeant gunners -- W. K. Thames, Fayetteville, N.C.; Joseph Obradovich, Lacross, Wis.; Richard Hasbrough, Brooklyn; Harry Alsaker, Montana, and Robert Oberon, Cresline, Ohio.

After landing in Africa they took off one recent morning and formed up with two other Fortresses for the last lap of their journey to war. They headed for the designated airdrome at the front, where they were to report for action.

They flew all day, and when they arrived where they thought the field should be they couldn't find it. So they flew on and kept hunting. The afternoon wore on and dusk grew near.

Suddenly, out of a blank sky, two fighters dived on them. Bullets began to spatter.

That was how these youngsters fresh from America discovered that they had wandered into enemy territory. What a fine way to start their war.

Devers' crew began shooting hack, but the fighters switched to one of the other Forts, one of which soon circled downward and disappeared, apparently shot down. It has not been heard from since [Russell crew].

The two remaining planes lost the Germans in the dusk. One made a crash landing. Devers circled over it and was given a signal not to land. Several days later American reconnaissance planes discovered this Fortress being towed along the road headed for Italian territory. They dived at it, guns going, and set it afire.

That accounts for two of the Forts and gets us down to our friends mentioned above.

They were alone in the air now and they headed back west to get away from the enemy. It was dark, and they still couldn't find the airdrome to which they were being sent, so they flew far south to make sure of getting sway from the mountains. They went up to 11,000 feet, flew until their gas was gone, and then jumped.

Devers gave them all instructions before they jumped. They were flying south and he would be the last man out, so he would start walking north and all the others south. The plan worked. Eight of the nine found each other within half an hour. Lieutenant Coveno landed in a gully half a mile away and spent the night there, rejoining the others next morning." [long description of walkout and camel riding follows]

A big tip of the hat to Steve Birdsall for helping to shed some light on all this.

Still would like to know which Axis fighters attacked the B-17s.

So who is going to turn all of this into a book and screenplay?

Edward

[Leendert]

Great finds and good part of mystery solved...

NARA POW record for Jesse L. Coalter says captured on 3 Jan 1943. Was (to be?) assigned to 346th BS, 99th BG.

Please note that for 42-5357 Osborne's Master Log gives conflicting info, but there's photo evidence of a destroyed #357 in a desert landscape.

Regards,
Leendert

[Edward]

Thanks again Leendert. In an newspaper article (9 August 1945) about Lt. Coalter following his return to the U.S. he states that he was captured on January 4. Hopefully more information will surface on this story.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Excellent find Ed!! (Steve B and Ernie P can have my hat as well )

However I have now looked through the relevant pages of MAW 3 (p 236 - 238) and there is extremely little evidence there.
I can only find Devers' B-17 in the loss list. Nothing in the actual text.

The strafing is mentioned on p 238 but again nothing in the list.

Some final thinking
It would be interesting to know from where the three aircraft took off. My guess is they came from the south somewhere via the South Atlantic route.
Also interesting would be to know the weather that day. Three aircraft, all making quite a substantial navigation mistake....

Alex
Thanks for checking your notes. Pity you don't have any sources left. No worries, I would probably have had the same problems myself. Not good at noting down sources either....
I have now filed the P-38 loss with a ? behind.

I confess this topic has been most enjoying to take part in.
Really TOCH when it is at its best!!

Again thanks Guys
Cheers
Stig

[Leendert]

Another POW, likely from Coulter's crew, was Lt. Carl H. Holmstrom (0-661630), who later became famous as forging artist while in captivity.
See https://www.armywarcollege.edu/News/archives/12243.pdf

Full Coulter's crew most likely here: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/142694316, image 24 (68/ME), with names of Coulter and Holmstrom.

Probable also is SSgt Joel M. Alford (34167617) with reporting date 4 Jan 1943. Also see
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...l-murry-alford with text (mistakenly?) saying 1942, but North Africa.

Miscellaneous German and German Documents # 14 (https://catalog.archives.gov/id/142694377, image 34) more names as captured on 4 Jan 1943, together with Joel Alford as crew members of a Boeing:
They are: SSgt Theodore F. Barthelmy, T/Sgt Carroll R. Balmer, T/Sgt John S. Anderson and S/Sgt Arley Abercrombie. No names of officers mentioned here. Officers whisked away to the Italian sub and other crew ended up in German camps?

Regards, Leendert