Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 6th March 2005, 19:16
O.Menu's Avatar
O.Menu O.Menu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: France
Posts: 359
O.Menu
Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

Since i suppose D.Hermann more than G.Gollob restricted the list to Fw 190 units, could someone telll us where could we find what was anticipated about the Bf 109 units ?



From Fw 190 "Long Nose", D.Hermann, Schiffer Pub, page 117:

In March 45, Gen der Jagdfliegder G. Gollob issued a list of aircraft types from the Emergency Fighter Program to be assigned to Fw 190 units:


full JG2.........................> Fw 190D-9
II./JG4.........................> Fw 190D-9
I. & II./JG6 ..................> Fw 190D-9
I. & III./JG 11 ..............> Fw 190D-9
I., II., IV./JG26 ............> Fw 190D-12
I., II. & III./JG54 ..........> Fw 190D-9
II.JG300 .......................> Fw 190D-9/R11 to Me 262
I. & II./JG301 ................> Fw 190D-9/R11 to Ta 152
III./KG(J)27...................> Fw 190D-9/R11
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 6th March 2005, 19:23
Don Pearson Don Pearson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Monroe NJ
Posts: 331
Don Pearson
Full listing

"Focke Wulf Fw 190/ Ta 152" by Griehl/Dressel has a more complete listing. I can post it as time allows today.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 6th March 2005, 23:34
Ota Jirovec Ota Jirovec is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Posts: 231
Ota Jirovec
Standardization of Bf 109K units

Below is the short excerpt from Messerschmitt Bf 109K monography by A. Janda and A. Poruba, JaPo 1997, p. 89:

"Despite failure of standardisation itself, its plan was realised. On February 8, 1945 a plan of re-equipment with Bf 109K-4s nad K-4/R6s was attached to lists of actual equipment of the units. Besides other, Bf 109K-4s were to appear at following units: II/JG 3, IV/JG 4, III. and IV/JG 5, III/JG 6, II/JG 7, I., III. and IV/JG 51, II/JG 52, II/JG 77 and all Italian fighter units, Bf 109K-4/R6s were to be assigned to III. and IV/JG 300, I. and II/KG(J) 6 and I. and II/KG(J) 27.

This plan was modified two months later and reflected an effort for wider use of more advanced fighter types as for example Fw 190D-11/12/13s, Ta-152H-10s or He 162s, so that Bf 109s were to be replaced with another type instead of the anticipated Bf 109K-4s. Also another version appeared in the plans, the Bf 109K-6. These planes should have equipped IV/JG 3, IV/JG 4 and IV/JG 300. The Bf 109K-4s were to spread to remaining Gruppen of JG 3 and JG 4, Bf 109K-4/R6 to KG(J) 30. None of this really happened."

Hope this helps,

Ota
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 6th March 2005, 23:39
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,758
John Manrho will become famous soon enough
Copies?

Does anybody have copies of the original documents? I would be interested in obtaining copies of these documents. Cheers, John.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 14th March 2005, 22:24
O.Menu's Avatar
O.Menu O.Menu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: France
Posts: 359
O.Menu
The proposed changes to units equipped with Bf 109 were as follows :

OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45

No. Unit Present type Convert to Notes
1. III./ JG 1 Bf 109 G-10 He 162 (April/May) -
2. II. / JG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
3. III. / JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
4. III. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
5. IV. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 K-4 -
6. III. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
7. IV. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
8. III. / JG 6 Bf 109 G-14/AS K-4 when deliveries permit -
9. II. / JG 11 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
10. I. / JG 27 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
11. II. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
12. III. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
13. I. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
14. III. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
15. IV. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
16. II. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
17. III. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
18. II. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
19. III. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
20. IV. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
21. I. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
22. II. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
23. III. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
24. III. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 planned, deadline
25. IV. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 -
26. I. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
27. II. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 K-4 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
30. I. / KG(J) 27 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
31. I. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 G-10/R6 - -
32. II. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 K-4 - to industrial defense
33. Ist Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
34. IInd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
35. IIIrd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -

Thanks to this Hungarian site, i dont know who is the author, we now have reference from the original document:

http://www.kurfurst.atw.hu/articles/MW_KvsXIV.htm

John, or any other historian, would be nice if one of you could show us the original document.

Cheers, LLv34_Doc.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 5th July 2005, 21:49
Kurfürst Kurfürst is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 169
Kurfürst
Re: Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

Hey geez, that`s my little site

The info comes from Kobel/Mathmann`s Bf 109 book.

Does anybody have the mentioned report in it`s original form?
I mean the OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45

The reason I ask is because the document notes the changeover to 1.98ata with G-10/K-4 units, and it`s little debated by some to say at least - which is one reason I put that article together - and I am looking for the clearance orders for 1.98ata.

Butch2k says it`s February 1945, and the above order notes it`s actually happening in march, but more info is always welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 6th July 2005, 02:12
ArtieBob ArtieBob is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sharps Chapel, TN USA
Posts: 444
ArtieBob will become famous soon enough
Re: Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

I don't know if this helps or not, but the Flugzeugweiterentwicklung-Terminplan (my translation-aircraft further development schedule) from Chef TLR/FL-E in Jan 45 appears to give the Bf 109 production phase out schedule. G-14s in 2/45, G-10s and K-4s in 8/45, K-4/R-6 IN 11/45. K-6/R-6 begin 3/45 and end in 9/45. IMHO any LW planning document put together in 1945 probably contains more fantasy than reality.

Best regards,

Artie Bob
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 6th July 2005, 03:23
George Hopp's Avatar
George Hopp George Hopp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ottawa, CA
Posts: 830
George Hopp
Re: Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

Very interesting info, Art. And, your point about such planning is undoubtedly correct. But, if you were in that office at that time, what would you do -- roll over and play dead? In my estimation, all you could do is take the situation at that time, and try to plan ahead based on it, even if in your heart of hearts you knew that you're simply blowing smoke, and that the world as you know it is dying all around you.

I especially empathize with those military people -- in all services -- who, knowing that nothing they did would affect the course of the war anymore, still went into action each day.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 6th July 2005, 03:27
George Hopp's Avatar
George Hopp George Hopp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ottawa, CA
Posts: 830
George Hopp
Re: Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

I remember getting that info from Richard Smith years ago. Whether or not he got it from original documents, I don't know.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 6th July 2005, 14:32
Kurfürst Kurfürst is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 169
Kurfürst
Re: Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

You mean the OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45 docs, George? I recall in your book Monogram Bf109K it`s was stated that 'in March 1945 the Bf 109K with an improved supercharger was to came into production'.

This was connected to the 'Ersatz' K-14, ie. K-4 with a doppelader DB 605D, but it cuts into the 1.98ata boost things since perhaps 'verbesserte Ladedruck/Lader' can be mixed up..

OTOH, Japo`s new 109K has a czech mechanic noting that he seen two staged 605Ds coming into his factory from March 1945 onwards, so it`s perhaps not a mixup in the end at all. It`s rather confusing. Can somebody clear up that for me?


BTW, this could be useful regarding the 1945 state of the LW. I got it from a discussion on the old (now closed) onwar forums, unfurtunately it only lists Bf 109 types in detail :

From : RL2III/1158

On 31 January 1945 the combat units of the Luftwaffe and their associated Erganzungs Einheiten, had the following strength in Bf109 types. These are on hand totals, they include both 'frontline' and 'other' units. Included are all aircraft operational and non-operational at the time. (combat/Erganzungs):
Bf109G1/5 (0/1)
Bf109G12 (0/5)
Bf109G6 (71/328)
Bf109G14 and G14U4 (431/190)
Bf109G10, G10/U4 and G14/AS (568/3)
Bf109K4 (314/0)
Bf109G10/R6 (51/0)
Total (1435/527)

Other Jagd types totaled (1058/359)
Schlacht types totaled (680/375)
Nachtschlacht types totaled (422/95)
Zerstorer types totaled (42/0)
Nachtjagd types totaled (1241, no breakdown between the two)
Kampf types totaled (543/158)
Nahaufklarer totaled (407/27)
Fernaufklarer totaled (195/81)
See types totaled (78/17)
Transport types totaled (496/9)
Grand total (6597/1631)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
'Luftwaffe fighter CO' at Boxted Airfield, England Andy F-P Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 9th September 2020 06:49
Documentation of 2000HP Bf 109s of 1945 Kurfürst Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 10th September 2009 13:15
Luftwaffe fighter units on Crete July 44? David Pausey Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 2nd June 2005 07:52
Fighter pilots' guts Hawk-Eye Allied and Soviet Air Forces 44 8th April 2005 15:25
Luftwaffe fighter losses in Tunisia Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 47 14th March 2005 05:03


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net