Help about of a Harvard shot down in Egypt

[focusfocus]

Hi

11/09/1942

Viktor Gruber claim a NAA 64 (Harvard?) shot down at Fayoum (Egypt).

What is the identity of it?.....RAF or Royal Egypt AF....error of identification?

michel

[Nick Hector]

Sadly, AHOTMAW 2 offers no details on this one, and I would love to know myself

[Col Bruggy]

Hello,

A-B's The Harvard File (1988, p.51), records the following:

Harvard II AJ775
Middle East
No record of service
Lost 11.9.42

Conversely, the AA100 to AZ999 Volume (2000, p.71) mentions:

Harvard II AJ775
To Southern Rhodesia
20 SFTS
SOC 1.46

Col.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Just a shot in the dark, but 7 Sqn SAAF were in Egypt around this time and there is one death recorded in CWGC for this date, an Air Cpl, but in "85 yes" it does not connect his loss to an aircraft event. The squadron would have AT6 a/c at this time on hand I expect.
So maybe a connection after all ?
Alex

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

Just a little on the AJ batch.
RAF serial numbers given to what was originally a French order for Harvard II's, were AJ538 to AJ987.
46 a/c were sent to the MAAF from October '41.
In 1941 - 1 was involved in accident.
In 1942 some 27 of them were involved in accidents .
6 of those accidents were of a/c with 20 SFTS, not counting AJ775, (IF it was with the Unit ?).
The 46 a/c had no USAAC serial numbers but there Manufacturing numbers were in the batch from 76-3508 to 76-3957.

So AJ775 was - 76-3745 if I'm right ?

Also why would a 20 SFTS a/c be in Egypt ?

Alex

[Martin Gleeson]

Hello,

Probably not connected, but for what it's worth here goes.
Harvard AJ807 appears to have been abandoned on a landing ground or somewhere in the desert. A year or two ago there was a photo on EBay showing the abandoned AJ807 being inspected by German personnel. The undercarriage legs are down and the airscrew intact but one tyre appears to have been ripped off. So it may have been a rough forced landing for some reason. No unit markings.

Oddly the only unit shown in the Air-Britain AA100-AZ999 volume to have had this Harvard on charge (officially) was No. 55 Repair and Salvage Unit and it has a Struck Off Charge date of 8 April 1943. A look at the TOC date on its Form 78 Aircraft History Card might help to narrow down the date of its demise.

Other Harvards allocated to the Middle East have vague fates too. Such as AJ804 which just has 'ME' and nothing for its fate. The recent excellent series on the Rhodesian Air Training Group in the Air-Britain 'AEROMILITARIA' magazine might shed light on AJ775, whether it was used by them or not. A trip to the attic however is called for.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

[Martin Gleeson]

Hello again,

made that trip to the attic ! All the Harvard Mk. 2s known to have been operated by the RATG are listed in part 7 of the series in 'AEROMILITARIA' (June 2014). The AJ batch finishes at AJ774. So it seems the fate in the revised 'AA100-AZ999' volume may have been a transcription error and that the earlier entry in 'THE HARVARD FILE' may be closer to the truth. That precise date of '11.9.42' is difficult to ignore.

Looking at MAW2 on page 345 there is an eye-witness account by a pilot on the ground. He specifically states it was a Harvard piloted by a Squadron Leader and that it "made a safe crash-landing".

Hope some of this helps. It would be nice to solve this little mystery !

Regards,

Martin.

[Russell]

Hello All,

There are nice pics of various aircraft burning as a result of this combat in Michael Lavigne's Hurricanes Over the Sands Pt 1 p 300-301. The book also quotes Wally Conrad's diary as stating 'Saw Hector at the S.C. He was shot down and slightly wounded in a Harvard this a.m''

No reference in MAW as I had not been able to put a name to Hector or work out the conflict between the Harvard serials described above, before the dreaded deadlines stopped any reference in the book.

Regards

Russell.

[Leendert]

Michel,

According this link http://raf-112-squadron.org/112_photos_page_4.html
the RAF 239 Wing in Egypt had three Harvards in Egypt for a short while in 1942.
They were AJ844, AJ845 and AJ944, but last one contested in adf-serials (see below).

Perhaps a lookup in AB can render more info?

More pics and further info here: http://adf-serials.com.au/harvard.htm

Regards,

Leendert

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
From AA100-AZ999
AJ 807 - 55 RSU - SOC 8.4.43.
AJ844 - 203 Gp CF - SOC 31.5.45.
AJ845 - 7 SAAF/CV TT - SOC 31.1.46.
AJ944 - To Canada - 41 SFTS - To RCAF 22.1.44

Alex