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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#11
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Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
According to diary from Koller under 17. january 1945:
After I came back from the advanced headquarter in the west i met with Oberst Lützow, Steinhoff and Rödel 17.30! So I,m pretty sure that Steinhoff was present at the meeting on the 19. with Göring! Junker |
#12
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Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
Quote:
Als der Himmel brannte Der Weg der deutschen Luftwaffe Karl Batz Adolf Sponholz Verlag Hannover, 1955 p.252 Meuternde "Asse" So trafen sich - auf Veranlassung Gallands, der im Hintergrund blieb - mehrere Obersten der Jagdwaffe, um eine Denkschrift zu forumulieren und Göring ins Gesicht zu sagen, wo die Fehler lagen und Abhilfe zu verlangen. - Es trafen sich Männer mit den höchsten Auszeignungen, Männer, die oft genug das Totenhemd getragen hatten... Es waren die Obersten Graf, Lüztow, Neumann, Rödel, Steinhoff und Trautlof. So the original German copy of Bartz does include Steinhoff! Lets not forget that also Steinhoff quotes from Koller's diary, on p. 112 & 116 as one of the prime instigators running up to the confrontation with Göring. The Final Hours A German jet pilot plots against Goering Johannes Steinhoff Nautical & Aviation Publ., 1985 Another list can be found in Fighter General The Life of Adolf Galland Raymond Toliver & Trevor Constable Schiffer, 1999 p.167 Goering immediately saw Steinhoff and Neumann at Karinhall. Their visit and views convinced Goering that he had a major crisis on his hands. The Reich Marshal thereupon called a meeting of all available Kommodores at the House of Pilots (Haus der Flieger) in Berlin. Colonels Luetzow, Steinhoff, Roedel, Trautloft and Neumann; Lt. Colonels Graf, Bennemann and Priller; and Majors Michalski and Aufhammer were available to attend. Galland was not invited. Trautloft and Luetzow nevertheless kept him informed of events. Now here is what I think might be closer to the thruth. The Obersten Lutzow, Neumann, Rödel, Steinhoff and Trautloft were prime movers in the case against Goering. They had been part of the planning phase or had contact with either Köller or Von Greim in the days previous to the January meeting. Steinhoff p. 118 We gathered outside the building. At our suggestion all the conspirators had been summoned to Berlin who a month before had decided to take action: Lützow, Trautloft, Neumann, Rödel and Steinhoff. Now Graf was there judging by what apears to be a more thorough list in Toliver & Constable, but likely only as an attendee: a meeting of all the available Kommodores. So Steinhoff was in his right in excluding him as part of the conspiracy, however Graf was also correct as a participant of the infamous meeting. What remains is an error in a Finnish translation of Karl Bartz, or an error in its re-translation to English, thus there remains no doubt that Steinhoff was there, and little doubt that Graf was as well... Of course this is part assumption on my part. (there is also a good account of the January meeting in Six Months to Oblivion, by Girbig p. 182, which together with The Last year of the Luftwaffe, by Price p. 131, also includes Graf in the list).
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Ruy Horta 12 O'Clock High! And now I see with eye serene The very pulse of the machine; A being breathing thoughtful breath, A traveller between life and death; |
#13
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Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
Hi,
I.a.w. Steinhoff's The Last Chance there is no doubt that he was there. After the meeting he accounts how he attempts to contact Lützow in Italy, but is detained at the border and returned to Berlin. It is noteworthy that Lützow, Trautloft, Neumann, Rödel and Steinhoff all are "relieved" of their present positions, but Graff continues as Kdore JG 52 ?????????????????? bregds SES |
#14
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Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
If you read between the lines in my book "Graf & Grislawski", you will see that although I mention the two different versions, my own conclusion is that probably both Graf and Steinhoff took part in the confrontation with Göring in January 1945. At the end, I write: "Göring's most sinister threats never were realized. The most severe repercussions were brought down on Lützow, who was banned from German soil and sent to Italy to assume command of the German fighter units in the area. Oberst Rödel remained in command of 2. Jagddivision, and Oberst Steinhoff had been removed from his command of JG 7 previously in December 1944. The fact that Hermann Graf was allowed to return to JG 52. . ."
I don't see any objective circumstance which supports the conclusion that Graf was only a passive attendee. At least Graf himself describes the list of demands which was presented to Göring as "our proposals". This is how Gollob commented on Steinhoff's description of the famous meeting with Göring: "One finds that accurate statements are missing, detailed information is sometimes not correct. Anyone expecting objectivity/impartiality will be disappointed," Gollob writes on Steinhoff's description. Continuing his review of Steinhoff's book ("Verschwörung der Jagdflieger"), Gollob wrote: "One notices that many of the 'players' are referred to by their initials and not their full names. Why such secrecy? Often it is unclear who said what . . . We find for instance, Major Br. (page 82) and the Hptm. from the General der Jagdflieger's staff who 'arranged' Steinhoff's trip to northern Italy to see Lützow where he was held up by military police on orders of General Ritter von 'P'. Shall we insert the proper names? Brustellin, Kath and Ritter von Pohl. Or does Oblt 'B' (p. 52/54) and Obstlt B. have a similar personality to that of Bühlingen? Corrections would be welcome as much as any additions. The method of spreading allegations without providing any proof is inexcuseable." Jochen Prien is another one who questions the accuracy of some statements in Steinhoff's book "Verschwörung der Jagdflieger". See p. 138 in Prien's et al excellent "Jagdfliegerverbände" 9/I. Although Prien touches another subject in the same book by Steinhoff, it forms a questioning of the reliability of Steinhoff's book as a source. As for myself, I rest my case. I was in personal contact with Steinhoff for many years and received much valuable information from him - information which I later have been able to find confirmation for in original documents etc. However, Steinhoff diplomatically avoided to identify the people mentioned by single characters (letters) in "Verschwörung der Jagdflieger". For different reasons, these three men - Graf, Steinhoff and Gollob - are quite controversial persons in the society of WW II Luftwaffe fighter pilots. To SES: Quote:
Last edited by Christer Bergström; 28th August 2005 at 16:34. |
#15
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Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
Hi Chris,
Thank you very much for this most thorough analysis. I was working off books only, and they are seldom the best sources. The present company excluded . Bregds SES |
#16
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Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
Gustav Rödel was not in command of 2. Jagddivision at the time of this meeting. He served in the Stab of the Jagddiv. Rödel became commander on the 16. february 1945, taking over from GenMj. Ibel!
It would still be great to see Koller's notes in his diary about this meeting! Junker |
#17
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Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
Quote:
Der Abgang General Galland wird von der Truppe nicht verstanden, da er in der Waffe als der übertragende Kopf und Führer anerkannt ist und - trotz seiner Härte nach unten - das Herz der Jagdflieger besitzt.Original from facsimile copy of memorandum in Dahl's Rammjaeger, translation from Girbig's Six Months to Oblivion. Would a system which took on Galland really have such second thoughts on Graf? The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but I believe it is unwise to make such blanket statements on either side of the argument. However personally I am tempted to believe that the role of conspirator (or Luftwaffe politics) is ill suited to the character we generally attribute to Graf.
__________________
Ruy Horta 12 O'Clock High! And now I see with eye serene The very pulse of the machine; A being breathing thoughtful breath, A traveller between life and death; |
#18
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Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
Quote:
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#19
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Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
Thanks for the interesting contributions here which have presented concisely the different possibilities as to what may have actually occurred with regard to this matter. The conflicting information available no doubt precludes any definitive conclusions from being drawn in regards to whether Graf, Steinhoff or both of them were in the room that day. Thanks again for the input.
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#20
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Re: Graf or Steinhoff?
A little off topic, but I have always been a big fan of Johannes Steinhoff, and Walter Krupinski. So much so that I gave them both one of my original paintings of one of the aircraft they flew. Every time I wrote them for info. they always wrote back. ( like most of the German pilots I wrote to) Unfortunately I have not had as good of luck with the RAF pilots. Bob
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