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  #1  
Old 15th February 2009, 21:55
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Hello!

Perhaps this is of interest for someone. Originally posted as query by Martti Kujansuu at Flightforum.fi -forum (in this Finnish-language thread: http://www.flightforum.fi/forum/inde...70631.900.html ) was this interesting photo:

http://www.palasuomenhistoriaa.net/k...slides/126.jpg
(as far as I could see this was the only German aircraft photo at the Pala Suomen historiaa -site)

This should be Leutenant Hans Lechte's mount - Bf 109 E-7 weisse 3, WNr. 5133 (not 5975 like I wrote first) - on his faithful mission May 9th, 1942. Hannu Valtonen's Luftwaffen pohjoinen rintama says Lecte parachuted but then went MIA. The victorious pilot was st. leutenant Kurzenkov from 78 IAP flying Hurricane.

The photo is said to be taken at Titovka airfield. Pretty remarkable landing without pilot, if the info given is correct. Plane looks almost intact.

I have no particular questions and the photo is served as a piece for Northern Airwar connoiseurs. Thanks have to also go towards Martti, because he found and posted the photo in the other forum first.


Cheers,
Kari

Last edited by Kari Lumppio; 17th February 2009 at 11:21.
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  #2  
Old 15th February 2009, 22:33
robert robert is online now
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Hi Kari,

I think this is "white 9" - there were few photos of this plane on E-bay in last two years.

Regards

Robert
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  #3  
Old 16th February 2009, 00:12
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Tomislav Haramincic Tomislav Haramincic is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kari Lumppio View Post
This should be Leutenant Hans Lechte's mount - Bf 109 E-7 weisse 3, WNr. 5975 - on his faithful mission May 9th, 1942.
Hello Kari,

According to my files Lechte went missing in WNr.5133
Bf 109E-3 WNr.5133 09.05.42 8./JG5 Lt. Hans Lechte (verm.), Luftkampf mit Hurricane, 3km Ö Titowka - 100% ws.3+ (E-7)

For WNr.5975, I have the following loss
Bf 109E-7 WNr.5975 10.05.42 5./JG5 Uffz. Heinz Bausch (verm.), Luftkampf, Ura Bucht - 100% ge.4+

best regards,
Tomi
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Old 16th February 2009, 02:59
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Horst Kube Horst Kube is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

...This should be Leutenant Hans Lechte's mount - Bf 109 E-7 weisse 3, WNr. 5975 - on his fateful mission May 9th, 1942...

Hello Kari,

"Weisse" (3 or 9) + does not fit to 8 Staffel.

III./JG 5:

7. Staffel = white
8. Staffel = black
9. Staffel = yellow

Regards,
Horst
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Old 16th February 2009, 08:53
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Hello!

Robert, Tomislav & Horst. Please do not blame me of the data supplied. The plane is identified as "white 3" in the Finnish forum thread. Valtonen's list indeed gives the tactical number as "white 3", too. I took the WNr from his book too, but possibly from wrong row (have to check that when at home). Later losses in his list for 8./JG 5 give black tactical numbers if at all.

Messieurs Brekken and Sheppard, your comments?

Cheers,
Kari
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Old 16th February 2009, 11:14
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Hi, Kari

A terrible monday morning it is here in Norway, with icy roads (just witnessed a really bad traffic accident on my way to work...) and now you turn up with this 'enigma'.

Well, for one it seems that the TO or Ia of the rather new III. Gruppe wasn't quite up to standards when recording loss data for this period.

What really happened? Not that easy to know for sure, but it seems that the 8. Staffel (or pilots from 8. Staffel) did fly aircraft coded with white numerals even if they should have been black.

Examples are the one mentioned here, which should have been WNr 5133 as far as I can see, coded White 3 + (the NVM of Sommer, lost on 27.05.1942, also says WNr 5133, but this is commented on the original document as probably wrong, in the GenQu report for Sommer WNr 2023 is given), Goretzki a bit later with White 14 +.

I cannot offer a full explanation, but there are a few pointers that might give us a bit of help:

1. A large part of the technical personnel of 8. Staffel was killed in a Ju 52 accident during a transfer flight on April 22. 1942. It is thus likely that the 7. and 8. Staffel might have used the same personnel for maintenance and to get their aircraft ready.

2. In my opinion Hptm Scholz might have chosen to treat these units as a single fighting unit, even if they 'Truppendienstlich' as it is written in German belonged to 7. and 8. Staffel respectively. Both Staffeln had just arrived in their new area of operations (9. Staffel was not in the north), and it is totally possible that the commanding officers put together what they believed to be the best Rotten, Ketten and Schwärme for the job, regardless of which unit they belonged to technically. In fact there is strong evidence to support this in the personnel and aircraft strength report of the unit of 25.04.1942 (and later in the relevant period), where 7. and 8. Staffel report their personnel strength jointly, while the 9. Staffel is treated separately. Also - and this might even be more important: Due to the fact that they were transferred to a new area of operations, the unit report only 15 out of 29 pilots ready for action on this date! The remaining pilots probably still not finished their familiarization training in the north by this date.

3. The total number of pilots ready is getting higher when we approach the date of the loss of White 3 + , but the number of aircraft ready for action decrease. On 30.04.1942 the combined 7. and 8. Staffel only have 11 aircraft ready (pilots 18 + 11 so called 'bedingt', best translation here is 'conditionally ready for action'), on the day after this loss the number is 13 (pilots 22 + 3 conditionally ready). So there are a lot more pilots than aircraft.

How to conclude...?

Well, I believe that during the first part of their northern operations the 7. and 8. Staffel of JG 5 were operating as a single fighting unit, utilizing pilots and available aircraft to get the best fighting force in the air at any given time.

Regards,
Andreas Brekken

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Ahhh... but I have seen the holy grail! And it is painted RLM 76 all over with a large Mickey Mouse on the side, there is a familiar pilot in front of it and it has an Erla Haube!

Last edited by Andreas Brekken; 16th February 2009 at 11:25. Reason: Spelling....
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Old 16th February 2009, 22:12
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Kari

Just as an aside, I believe you have looked at the wrong line in Valtonens book. I have his Luftwaffe pohjoinen sivusta and there it is clearly listed
9.5.1942 Bf 109E-7 WNr 5133 valkea 3, 8./JG 5 Lt. Hans Lechte, etc, etc.
Can't imagine he should have changed that in the book you have...

Andreas theory sounds very plausible to me

Cheers
Stig
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Old 16th February 2009, 22:28
markjsheppard markjsheppard is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Kari

Bf109E 5975 was lost in the tundra and the 'remains' are now in the USA along with 10256 and 10144. I doubt it was recovered from an old airfield.

Also 2023 was Black 9 and was also recovered and is with Jerry Yagen in Virginia USA.

27.05.42 Bf 109E-7 WNr 2023 "Black 9" of 8./JG 5 flown by Ofw. Walter Sommer shot down in air battle at 13:14 CET (Central European Time) between oz. Njal-javr and r. Lebjashka (Kola municipality) by Soviet Hurricane of 2. gvSAP VVS SF (Lt. Kolomiets). Also claimed by AA of 1./426 OZAD, located NW Murmashi.

So white 3 but which unit and which aircraft I do not know.

regards

Mark
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Old 16th February 2009, 23:22
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Fools Rush in............

I hesitate to enter this thread of Northern Air War Experten, but it strikes me that the KZ looks much darker than the white portion of the fuselage cross and it might be yellow. Could it be another machine other than we. 3, like ge. 3 or 9?
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  #10  
Old 17th February 2009, 09:01
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942

Hi, John!

Please do not hesitate !!

IF the aircraft has a yellow code, the only possible unit belonging in the north at this time would be 6. Staffel of II. Gruppe.

Looking at the scene in more detail, my opininon of this loss is that this is an aircraft that was belly landed with a stopped engine, judging by the position and damage of the propeller blades. Also, this would not have happened in rough terrain, as the damage to the fuselage and aircraft as a whole would have been much greater.

So - broadening the 'search' would indicate that we are looking for an aircraft belly landed on one of the airfields operated by the Luftwaffe spring/summer 1942... provided the aircraft wasn't belly-landed during the winter and what we see is an aircraft recovered from a landing on for example ice and brought to the airfield in the spring....

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

Are we all comfortable with the given location? Titovka??

Regards,
Anderas B
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