Late war Bf 109 pictures source

[ouidjat]

Hello David,

Yes... That picture story.
Downloaded in April 2010 from one US site or "outsider" Forum - without being sarcastic. Original size is 1850 wide.
Given WNr.1523x3 after a TOCH and/or LEMB discussion/comment. Don't know this 152033 comes from, but why not. At least we have two "3" in both! .
And given unit JG 27. I'm not critisizing your caption my dear friend.
BUT: Anders did put his "Schwarze 13" profile in his (old) site in 10/2011 (? At least I did download it at that time).
And it's true that this yellow band is puzzling me and I wonder from where comes this JG 27 caption.

And still no answer.

NOTE: Looking in my modest lost list in the range given by Marc I did find 12 planes: 9 from JG 300, two from NJG 11 and one from JG 27. All lost in 1945.
Some hypothesis: (Of course 12 is not enough)
1/ Anders "Schwarze 13" isn't JG 11 but NJG 11.
2/ All in fact are JG 300/NJG 11 being flown night and day, shared by both unit.
3/ Hence this "special camo".

Left that Bruxelles Late September 1944 picture....

Tshüss, Franck.

[RolandF]

Its like Marcs collection.

Not like Marc´s. It´s Photobucket and I can see the pics

Regards

Roland

[Falcon]

Hi Roland,
I don't have an account at Photobucket and I can see the photos. I use Firefox and the browser country settings are UK/US. Try this...

[ouidjat]

Thanks David!!!

Schwarze 13!
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=7179

Tschüss, Franck.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Hallo David, Franck und Roland!

Thanks for your thoughts, Franck! Your reasoning about the known pictures does bring us forward: I've never thought of JG 300/NJG 11 as linked units. David, the Yellow fuselage band does point in the same direction indeed. By the way, did you find your "Schwarze 13" pictures on Ebay?

Roland, I concur with David: I also installed on my Mac Firefox, and put the country setting on UK/USA and since then, no more worries;-))

As Franck puts it, this leaves us with the one and only dark camouflaged Bf 109 G depicted at Brussels Melsbroek in late September 1944. Was NJG 11 operating from this airfield?

Cheers
Marc

[ouidjat]

Euh, Hum ...

Slowly: it's just an idea ... And what I wrote when in office without checking deaper and in detail can be wrong...
1./NJG 11 was formed from 6./JG 300. In August 1944.
2./NJG 11 from 1./NJGr. 10 from I./JG 300
and so on.
All units used Bf109G and looks like Bf109G-10s indeed starting late 1944...

So it seems there is a possibility but it's open.
And it is just based on my short lost list on these batches. We need more and we need to verify that other units (II./JG 52 for example!) did NOT fly on such camouflaged machines. Actually the same Anders did paint a very close camouflaged JG 52 machine!

BUT, nevertheless, it's an appealling idea! I like it ... until a much more expert than I will put more arguments on the table.

OK. The link given by David is working straight forward for me, without firefox stuff.
The guy running this photobuckett is one of us, of course. But not me; I swear!.. And I concurr with Roland; it's not exactly the same stuff. Marc is engaging a permanent discussion between his page and this Forum and LEMB members too... Let's see.

Tschüss, Franck.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Yes Franck,

Your ideas, together with all other inputs, keeps us rolling; that's the charm of TOCH and LEMB...

Kees Mol just kindly attracted my attention to the fact that a section of the Melsbroek "dark" Bf 109 G might have survived to nowadays. The Brussels Air Museum displays next to its Fi 156 Storch a Bf 109 G-14/U4 fuselage section which appears by all means as dark as the machine depicted in September 1944. Now that would be something!
http://www.airmuseum.be/aircraftondi...ges/storch.jpg

Another picture can be seen in Mikael Olrog's site:
http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/

Go under German aircrafts, relics, Messerschmitt and there it is...
Glad to know that NJG 11 was formed in August 1944; this machine might just fit in;-))

Cheers
Marc

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Just to add another evidence:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
Source: Rittger, (L.), 2007: The Messerschmitt Bf 109. A comprehensive guide for the modeller. Part 2: "F" to "K" variants,Modeller Datafile 10, SAM Publications, p. 61.

I found this other dark two tones camouflaged Bf 109 G; given it's horseshoe shaped oil tank and long antenna mast, it is most probably another Bf 109 G-6. Note the yellow tail band, similar to this machine, found at Wels in May 1945:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57627917872322

The search is on;-))
Marc

[Erich]

greetings Gents

I./NJG 11 in pieces was at Lippstadt and Köthen into November 1944. In September of 44 it was equipped with the Bf 109G-6/AS.

1st staffel was not formed from 6.Sturm/JG 300 and there never was a Nachtkommando Plöner with JG 300 as far as I have found in my searches.

most likley the band on black 13 if and I do not believe it is a NJG 11 machine would of been red as was 10.Nacht/JG 300's Bf 109G-6's and G-14/AS before the staffel became the basis for 5th and 6./NJG 11. Later the fuselage bands were painted out.

just some things to consider

E ~

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Erich,

Thanks for your detailed input which gives me a clearer picture of the JG 300 /NJG 11 situation. This light colored band on Bf 109 G-10 "Schwarze 13" is 900 mm wide and does point quite clearly to a JG 11 machine.

This is not the case for the other mentioned pictures; those Bf 109 G have a 450 mm wide yellow tail band, signaling, to my knowledge, a training unit. The one point which is in common between all those machines is the dark two tones all fuselage camouflage.

The Bf 109 G-14 found in Melsbroek is more complex then I thought: thanks to Kees Mol, I found out that it's port side is camouflaged in the low vis dark two tones, but it's starboard side is an almost overall RLM 76, like the known Antwerpen Erla VIII Bf 109 G-6's...

Talk about easy determinations with this kind of riddle;-))

Cheers
Marc