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Old 4th April 2016, 11:42
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
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Ar 196s Captured on Prinz Eugen

Two Ar 196 A-5s still exist, one is T3+BH and the other T3+CH but there appears to be confusion with the Wk Nrs. Is the former 623037 or 623167 and the latter 0527 or 623183? Thanks
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Old 4th April 2016, 19:23
Tony Kambic Tony Kambic is offline
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Re: Ar 196s Captured on Prinz Eugen

Chris,

As a volunteer at Smithsonian's Udvar-Hazy Museum, I do get involved in some interesting projects. Currently I am helping with the preservation of Flak Bait's R-2800 engines. But a few years ago I was helping one of the curators and they asked me to do some background work on the Ar196 that is in storage.

As I understand it, your question is very valid as no one seems to know for sure at this time. I learned from one online site a few years ago that the WrkNr was just a projection based upon StammKennzeichen. The curator suggests that this is not always reliable.

At that time the NASM Ar196 was being discussed as the next Luftwaffe to be restored. I have viewed it some years ago in storage and the fabric is coming off in many places, and the aircraft was still up on floats.

The Prinz Eugen came first to Boston Naval yard, then to Philadelphia Naval Yard, and last to the Pacific where is was unintentionally sunk at the Bikini Atoll during an atomic test. It appears that Ar196s were unloaded in Philadelphia.

I was advised by NARA archivists that any records of the aircraft may be at either the Boston or Philadelphia Naval Yard libraries. They have nothing online that I am aware of.

I did some further research to try and locate where on the airframe might be the data plate with the WrkNr. Seems it could be a triangular plate welded into a triangle frame joint near the tail. One of the older restoration staff was going to see if he could locate it but could not visualize one.

The work on this aircraft is now suspended for the time being. I do not know any future scheduled work on it.

If I have any opportunity to view it again, I will try and see what I can learn. Artifacts are being brought over from Silver Hill to the new Udvar-Hazy center from time to time so it may show up. The other Ar196 I believe is being restored in Germany, possibly at the museum near Nordholz. You could try and contact them about that WrkNr.

Tony
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Old 4th April 2016, 19:28
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Re: Ar 196s Captured on Prinz Eugen

Thanks Tony-most helpful. Yes, the other one is in Germany where you say
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Old 9th April 2016, 12:36
Hans Mcilveen Hans Mcilveen is offline
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Re: Ar 196s Captured on Prinz Eugen

Not only is the Werknummer identity unclear but I suggest that there is actually no real evidence that the two Ar 196s were coded T3+BH and T3+CH. The log of Bordfliegerkommando 1./196 Prinz Eugen certainly mentions a T3+BH and a T3+CH in February 1945. But T3+BH was taken off the ship for repair on February 1st and replaced by T3+IH. T3+CH (Werknummer 0527) suffered severe oil leakage on February 15th and is likely to have been taken off for repair as well.
Ar 196s generally were only on board for a couple of weeks at a time so they either may or may not have returned to the Prinz Eugen, or even another ship, between February and May 1945.

There is however photographic evidence for two other Ar 196s, one on Prinz Eugen at Copenhagen in May 1945 and one at sea in January 1946.
T3+OH was on the catapult in Copenhagen at the time of surrender. See this photograph here and this video here.
T3+FH was on the catapult during the voyage from Bermerhaven-Wesermünde to Boston in the USA. See this photograph here and this video here.
So it is possible that the two surviving Ar 195 A-5s were coded T3+FH and T3+OH.

The W.Nr. identity of the two aircraft, as with the rest of the Fokker production run, remains open. I have found no evidence at all for 623037, 623167 and 623183.
I know of 6 aircraft with W.Nr. from 623004 to 623056 but in the higher range there is only evidence for 623163.

We will probably not know before restoration of the two aircraft begins in earnest.
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Old 16th September 2018, 16:27
Hans Mcilveen Hans Mcilveen is offline
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Re: Ar 196s Captured on Prinz Eugen Update

Some interesting recent developments in Nordholz, Germany. The team that is restoring one of the Prinz Eugen Ar 196s has found a serial number on the fuselage frame that could shed new light on the aircraft ‘s identity: 196 0293. Together with the earlier find of a data plate in the left wing dated 2.7.1942, this suggest a much earlier built aircraft than previously assumed. It also rules out the fact that this was a Fokker built example.
More information can be found here: https://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/sm...html#msg344031
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Old 17th September 2018, 14:32
Tony Kambic Tony Kambic is offline
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Re: Ar 196s Captured on Prinz Eugen

Here you go, on the tail of the NASM Ar196 at Garber in storage.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg NASM_Ar196_Tail.jpg (50.6 KB, 122 views)
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Old 29th September 2018, 13:54
Hans Mcilveen Hans Mcilveen is offline
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Re: Ar 196s Captured on Prinz Eugen

Hi Tony,

Thank you. Very interesting. But could this have been applied postwar?
The accepted Werknummer of this Arado is 623167 and your image seems to show 196 68967.

Were you able to view the images in the link I provided? They pinpoint the location where one should look for the Werknummer of the Arado. It would be nice to be able to compare the aircraft's numbers.

Regards

Hans
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Old 30th September 2018, 17:00
Revi16 Revi16 is offline
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Re: Ar 196s Captured on Prinz Eugen

https://www.klassiker-der-luftfahrt....auriert/713734
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Old 1st October 2018, 04:24
Tony Kambic Tony Kambic is offline
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Re: Ar 196s Captured on Prinz Eugen

Hans,

The image of the tail was taken sometime in the past few years at Garber. I have no knowledge whether it is original or was applied after the war.

I am a volunteer at the museum and a few years back was helping a curator who was gathering info on the Ar196. From what I gathered, the Prince Eugen was given to the US, and sailed to Boston, then Philadelphia. There some gun turrets were removed as was the Ar196. I never confirmed if there were 2 Arados on board. I believe this Arado ended up at Willow Grove NAS (I have an image of an Ar196 there I took in 1972).

During some research for the curator we did discuss whether there was a data plate welded in the framing of the tail, but never had time to get over to Garber to investigate.

Not sure if that is what you refer to as the location of a data plate described in the link you provided. It is mostly in German, which I do not read.

Tony
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Old 2nd October 2018, 04:15
Tony Kambic Tony Kambic is offline
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Re: Ar 196s Captured on Prinz Eugen

The Wings of Freedom Aviation Museum at Willow Grove indicates that the Ar196 they had was sent to Germany.

Tony
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