Soviet victory claims before 22 VI 1941?

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Yes this is it, in Spain the plane, which did not returned to own airfiled was credited as a victory, this plane could returned later in a few hours or days, after force landing.
I know, that some people are very strictly credite a victory only as a total written off/ destroyed enemy plane. OK, but what about damages planes and efforts to damage them too. It is nothing?

mw

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

To Juha and Joe

I have a "big problem" with classification of victory (several times it was earlier discused). Giving only total loss,Of course JAAF had lost total almost 6 times less fighters (but similar number was damaged too: 96 Ki-27 total lost plus 124 damaged, returned into units, all 220; plus next 5 Ki-10).

BTW
Soviet and JAAF losses accoridng the last V. Kondratiev book "Bitva nad stepju", Moskwa 2008.

Mirek, I do see your point. But I also see practical problems with evaluating claim accuracy or kill ratio's by using damaged planes as victories for the other side.

It is often difficult enough to define and count 'destroyed' a/c (what '% damage' in the German system? do 'forced landings' at home base count, or 'crash landings', or how about if it's in a field somewhere). This gets more complicated still for damage. For example, Japanese Navy operational reports usually give damage in detail down to number of holes in the plane (does 1 hole in a Zero confirm the claim of an opposing Allied pilot to have shot down a Zero?).

And accurate info about losses is often hard to find, damage much more difficult, especially for both sides. For example, it's taken decades to know 'real' Communist MiG-15 losses in Korea to F-86's in any detail, in sources open to Westerners. Soviet claims of F-86's were also at a high ratio to actual outright losses of F-86's, (absolute numbers and ratio was actually both fairly similar to Nomonhan, coincidentally). But it's also taken a long time to find comprehensive data on damaged F-86's (I think I have most of it, but a few random month's folder's were just lost it seems). And if we add those to Soviet 'victories' (the numbers are again coincidentally similar to Type 97's at Nomonhan), we still don't have the same info on Soviet, let alone Chinese or NK, *damaged* MiG's.

And, air arms which tried more seriously to keep their claims in line with reality often credited their pilots with 'probable' and 'damaged'. Again using Korea example, if we could find comprehensive data on MiG-15 damage in Korea, the US overclaim rate, just counting 'destroyed' credits, would surely drop below 1, underlcaim...because many 100's of MiG's were only credited as 'damaged' (and the several 100 actually destroyed for all three MiG AF's were ~75%, perhaps, of what US credited as 'destroyed'). This would be a strange result. OTOH if we didn't count damaged MiG's as 'victories' because the USAF had only claimed them damaged, but did count damaged F-86's as verifying Soviet claims of F-86's destroyed (they didn't officially credit 'damaged'), that doesn't seem very evenhanded. AFAIK, Allies AF's in WWII often also kept track of 'damage' and 'probable' credits, but not always or uniformly.

But more info is always better, and I'm very interested in the book you mentioned about Japanese losses in 1939. Did Kondratiev give his original Japanese source for those numbers?

In summary, I absolutely agree that information about damaged a/c further *clarifies* the results of air combat. It gives a solid explanation why a pilot might have believed he'd destroyed an opposing plane: he had indeed hit it. But I don't know about a practice of counting damaged a/c in scores which were supposed to have represented destroyed a/c.

Joe

[steve51]

Gentlemen,

I for one didn't mean to suggest that damaged a/c be given the same weight in score totals as a destroyed a/c. My point, poorly expressed, was that damaged a/c give a partial explanation for over claiming.

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

But more info is always better, and I'm very interested in the book you mentioned about Japanese losses in 1939. Did Kondratiev give his original Japanese source for those numbers?

Did not want to enter into issues of the award winning and determination which is so successful and what not. However, failed to avoid it. :-)

In the event of a loss of Japanese aviation Kondratieva uses data from the already known (the basis of Air Enthusiast, and an article from the 70s).
Kondratieva did a very interesting analysis of Soviet losses and it is actually a novel approach. Slightly increased the total Soviet losses to those not yet known (249 totally destroyed).
The description of the Soviet Union because of its publication is very interesting, it complements the loss of the Japanese, but it uses the well-known sources of publications issued in English.

mw

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Off the topic, but interesting, :-)
Just now, has beed edited in Russia a book about Soviet Aces of 1950-1953 over Korea, looks very interesting, only in Russia.

http://aerospaceproject.ru/book/46.html

Советские асы корейской войны

452 полноцветных полосы + 7 цветных большеразмерных вклеек, переплёт твёрдый, обложка – 7БЦ,бумага на блок – 115 гр., бумага на форзац – 125 гр., не запечатанный.
Тираж 750 шт.

[Arsenal VG-33]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

In Spain on republican side, much often was counting as colective victories, but when you add all Soviet victoires which are established by Russian reasarcher S. Abrasov, he put individual list of all Soviet victory claims and after you will add them you will get about 210 v., as a not collective victories but individual.
Spain and Chalchyn-Gol is difficoult, because Soviet had claimed collective victories, not individual, plus very often overclaiming is very high.


Soviete fougth from X/XI 1936 up to X 1938 in Spain mostly on most hotes spots, plus side by side with Spain's pilots, so this is next problem with exacte figure of their all victories.

mw

Not exactly

If you've got the S. Abrossov's book, read it carefully.
First, soviet homologation system changed several times throughout spanish war.

Secund, soviet personnal victories published by Abrossov are mainly uncomplete and issued from personnal pilot's personnal files and not always directly from war diaries. There is clearly a missing link between them; and moreover victory lists could have been "arranged" for the Kremlin summer 1937 meeting with Alksnis. It's another source for soviet pilot's credits, but rather an optimistic one.

Third, a certain overclaim is always natural in combat. I won't explain why, just try some aerobaics on a Yak, Zlin or Sukhoï in an aeroclub of yours and add to it, (rather imagine) the stess to be shooted down... In Spain overclaim was sometimes inflated by propaganda, then by multiple claims for the same damaged/destroyed plane between spaniards and russians, different Mosca/Chato squadrons, even between the same squadron/vic pilots ! On massive dogfights involving sometimes more than 50-100 planes from the both sides, nobody had really the time to follow falling planes.

Fourth, in Spain fought the most nimble planes of the whole aviation history: Fiats CR-32 (13,5s ToT), Heinkel 51 (12s), Chatos (8,5), Moscas (14,5). No mean to keep them classical "3 secunds" on the gunsight. All were rugged but underarmed, moreover unstable gun platform for soviet ones, and all of them could absorb a lot of punishment due to structural particularities. (Welded steel tubes, monocoque fuselages...).
A lot of planes were tremendously so called "salted" and "peppered" by bullets without conlusive results. Specially italian SM-79 that used to return the way back gliding on 1 or a one half of engine. Remember the 8th décember when full 28 Polikarpov fired 62 (!) thousand bullets at short distance (less than 50m in spain) on Ju-52's, shooting down only one plane, a secund one suffering extensive damage.

At end without reliable and complete accounts for the franquist side difficult to estimate republican and moreover soviet overclaim. Except for soviet deliveries from Abrosov's book, the polemic about german, italian deliveries and franquist total losses is far from being dead and burried...

I would have from mysleft that's about to be closed for french deliveries too, the discrepancy's touching about 4-5 combat planes, has no significant meaning.

Regards

Regards

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

First, soviet homologation system changed several times throughout spanish war.

Yes you are right, it had changed, different in 1936 and other in 1938. But it is waste of time to expalin it.

Third, a certain overclaim is always natural in combat.

It is obvious, on the begining on this post I do not ask about any kind of credibility or verification of Soviete victories, but asked about any general figures claimed victories by Sovite pilots? No matter how many planes of enemy side were in fact written off. This is not a point.
So, if you remeber, that for example I-16 typ 5 had 2 x 7,62 or typ 6 3 X 7,62 for modern metal planes it was very low effecitve guns (similar "power" like fighters like in WW I but planes were much better and faster). Even I-16 typ 10 with 4 x 7,62, was not better due to jamming of 2 guns. Similar situation with I-15, I-15bis. Pilots did what they could, nothing more in these fighters.

Regards,
mw

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

Off the topic, but interesting, :-)
Just now, has beed edited in Russia a book about Soviet Aces of 1950-1953 over Korea, looks very interesting, only in Russia.

Mirek,, or if anyone else might known, do you know any bookseller that sells that book, who accepts regular international credit cards (like Visa and such) and ships overseas? The one site I found required a certain payment system I wasn't familiar with, maybe it's only used in Russia.

Joe

[Håkan]

Hello,

In rthe same way as JoeB, I'm interested in how to obtain the book by S. Abrasov about the Russian claims in Spain.
Anyone knows were to obtain this?

Best wishes/Håkan

[Arsenal VG-33]

Originally Posted by Håkan

Hello,

In rthe same way as JoeB, I'm interested in how to obtain the book by S. Abrasov about the Russian claims in Spain.
Anyone knows were to obtain this?

Best wishes/Håkan

Maybe on ozon.ru
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/3759327/