Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11th July 2019, 20:58
Seaplanes Seaplanes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 677
Seaplanes is on a distinguished road
Arado Ar 96T (ex. Ar 96B) Aircraft carrier trainer

For use as aircraft carrier trainers, two Ar 96B-1 aircraft, W.Nr. 4552 and 4553, were converted to Ar 96T with catapult equipment and arrester hooks. These trainers were apparently tested at E-Stelle (See) in Travemünde from 25. August 1942. As the plans of completing the carrier "Graf Zeppelin" was abandoned, the two Arados were delivered to the Italian Air Force in the summer of 1943. One of the planes carried the Stammkennzeichen CD+OA. What was the Stammkennzeichen for the other one, and can anyone confirm any use by the Italians of these two aircraft.
Conversion of a further two Ar 96B-1's were planned, but later abandoned.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11th July 2019, 22:32
Tom Willis Tom Willis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 227
Tom Willis is on a distinguished road
Re: Arado Ar 96T (ex. Ar 96B) Aircraft carrier trainer

Hi Seaplanes
The other Stkz was PH+GZ - W/Nr.4552
Sorry I do not have any information regarding the use of these 2 Arados with the Italians.
My research is usually with going the other way - Italian aircraft in use by the Germans
Cheers - Tom
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11th July 2019, 23:06
Tom Willis Tom Willis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 227
Tom Willis is on a distinguished road
Re: Arado Ar 96T (ex. Ar 96B) Aircraft carrier trainer

Hi Seaplanes
What data have you got that indicates that either one was used by the Italian Air Force.
I have W/Nr.4552 - PH+GZ - With Arado Flugzeugwerke - recorded on 28.03.44 at Alt-Lonnewitz by the Arado test-pilot Eheim
Regards - Tom
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12th July 2019, 11:54
Rasmussen Rasmussen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lower Saxony, Germany
Posts: 629
Rasmussen is on a distinguished road
Re: Arado Ar 96T (ex. Ar 96B) Aircraft carrier trainer

CD + OA was flown from September to December 1943 in Alt - Lönnewitz from Arado test-pilot Johann-Ubbo Janssen and transfered on 23.December 1943 from Jüterbog to Brandenburg.
Regards Rasmussen
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12th July 2019, 13:40
JoMe JoMe is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Offenbach / Germany
Posts: 326
JoMe is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Arado Ar 96T (ex. Ar 96B) Aircraft carrier trainer

Hi Seaplanes

I have also no information on delivering to the Ital.Air Force.
Thats what I have:

PH + GZ / 4552
E-St.Travemünde, 25.08.42 (Travemünde, Erprobung als Trägerflgz., Katapultbeschläge und Landehaken)
Ar.-Brandenburg, 18.07.43 (Brandenburg-Industriehafen, Überlandflüge)
" , 04.09-30.11.43 (Brandenburg-Industriehafen, Erprobung)
" , 25.03-06.06.44 (Brandenburg-Industriehafen, Überlandflüge)
" , 28.03.44 (Brandenburg-Industriehafen, Erprobung) >
< Ar.-Sagan-Küpper, 22.11.44 (Sagan-Küpper, Erprobung)
" , 18.01-01.02.45 (Sagan-Küpper, Erprobung)

CD + OA / 4553
Avia-Prag, 12.08.42 (Prag-Cakowice/CSSR-Villacoublay-Süd/F, Umbau Trägerversion)
E-St.Travemünde, 25.08.42 (Travemünde, Erprobung als Trägerflgz., Kapatpultbeschläge und Landehaken)
" , 29-30.11.42 (Villacoublay-Süd/F-Travemünde)
" , 13-15.01.43 (Travemünde, Bremslandungen)
Ar.-Brandenburg, 03-04.09.43 (Brandenburg-Industriehafen, Erprobung)
" , 17.09.43 (%?) FP Alt-Lönnewitz, TM/Brl.
" , 10-23.12.43 (Brandenburg-Industriehafen, Überlandflug)
" , 04-15.01.44 (Brandenburg-Industriehafen, Werkflüge)
" , 23.05.44 (Brandenburg-Industriehafen, Erprobung)

best wishes
JoMe
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12th July 2019, 15:44
Seaplanes Seaplanes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 677
Seaplanes is on a distinguished road
Re: Arado Ar 96T (ex. Ar 96B) Aircraft carrier trainer

My information is based on the following two documents related to export of German aircraft to the Italian Air Force. I do realize that these docs do not confirm the delivery, only that they are released for export.

In the book "E-Stelle See Travemünde" Band 2, page111, there are two photos of the Ar 96T
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Italian Air Force RLM exports 1.jpg (193.6 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg Italian Air Force RLM exports 2.jpg (128.0 KB, 41 views)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 15th July 2019, 13:44
JoMe JoMe is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Offenbach / Germany
Posts: 326
JoMe is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Arado Ar 96T (ex. Ar 96B) Aircraft carrier trainer

Hi Seaplanes

Very interesting document. It seems, however, that this intention to sell was not realized.

best wishes
JoMe
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 16th July 2019, 08:28
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,036
Stig Jarlevik is on a distinguished road
Re: Arado Ar 96T (ex. Ar 96B) Aircraft carrier trainer

JoMe and Björn

I have received confirmation from Italy that both these Ar 96 B (T) were tested at Guidonia (by Nucleo Sperimentale) already in May 1943 for the Aquila carrier program. A request for six aircraft had been made.

With regard to the undated second document, none of the Fi 167 reached Italy.
The Ju 88s are hard to say, since deliveries to Italy were haphazard.
The mentioned 12 Fi 156 was a final batch scheduled for an Aug 1943 delivery which never took place due to the fall of Il Duce.

Finally the four listed Olympia gliders are unknown

Some of these details can also be found in the magazines of IARB back in the 1970s

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 16th July 2019, 10:45
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,036
Stig Jarlevik is on a distinguished road
Re: Arado Ar 96T (ex. Ar 96B) Aircraft carrier trainer

Gentlemen

It seems I was relying on old information once given by Nino Arena back in the 1970s. Further research by Giancarlo Garello did not substantiate Arena's conclusions.

I have received an answer from Gregory Alegi this morning which is important enough to quote as is. Sorry to have led you astray...

Between 25 February and 3 March, 1943, a small German detachment carried out arrester gear tests at Perugia airport in conjunction with the Regia Aeronautica, within the framework of Organizzazione Roma (OR, the codename for the Italian carrier programme). The Germans had a Ju 87 C-1 (W. Nr. 573, SH + DB) and an Arado Ar 96 B-1/U2 (W. Nr. 4553, CD+OA), both in German markings. The Arado carried out 18 taxi tests and 68 cable engagements, without incident. The final report is dated 31 March 1943.

The late and not always reliable Italian author Nino Arena, very active between 1975-85), wrote that W. Nr. 4552 and 4553 were delivered in May 1943 and mentions the 12-aircraft Fi.167 order. In 1981 the much more scrupulous and reliable Giancarlo Garello published the Perugia test report in Aerofan (no. 4/1981; now at http://www.alieuomini.it/pagine/dett...gidio,201.html), with a note saying he had not found any evidence of actual delivery and asking Arena to supply evidence. Nothing transpired.

The new document seems to suggest that the Italians ordered, or announced their interest in purchasing, the Ar 96 B and Fi 167 in May, and that the RLM accepted the request in June, assigning W. Nr. 4552 and 4553, the latter of course the Perugia test aircraft. The document, however, also makes it clear that the aircraft had not yet been delivered, and it is unlikely that they ever were given the rapidly evolving military situation.

In short, it is possible that Arena had found the Italian request to which the German document replied, and jumped to conclusions about the actual delivery.

Cheers
Stig

Last edited by Stig Jarlevik; 16th July 2019 at 19:51.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 16th July 2019, 19:10
Tom Willis Tom Willis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 227
Tom Willis is on a distinguished road
Re: Arado Ar 96T (ex. Ar 96B) Aircraft carrier trainer

Hi Stig
Thanks for following the paper trail and relaying the results here. The info that at least one of the Ar 96B's and a Ju 87C-1 was tested in Italy is News to me and most likely all of us here that use this brilliant site. So thanks for your resilience it is always much appreciated.
Cheers - Tom
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My library - you rate it! generalderpanzertruppen Books and Magazines 8 24th November 2007 02:36
Delta-shaped Aircraft over France in 1944 Junkers Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 27th March 2007 20:51
Airpower summary Pilot Post-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation 0 23rd February 2007 15:11
German Claims in Poland 1939 Marius Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 56 12th September 2005 17:39
Luftwaffe fighter losses in Tunisia Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 47 14th March 2005 04:03


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net