Galland vs Göring (according to Speer)

[CJE]

Those who read the memories of Albert Speer certainly recall the argument between Galland and Göring, when the latter was boarding his special train for a hunting party in the Rominter Heide, about the fact that an American escort fighter had been shot down east of Aachen. This argument ended up when Göring shouted: "The American fighters were not there, that's what I'll say to the Führer. Have you understood? It is an official order!".

Speer stated that this incident took place during the Summer of 1943.
But at that time, no Allied fighter was able to fly as far as Aachen and I assume Galland was talking of a P-51. However, this type did not appear before late December of the same year.

My guess: was it the P-51 shot down by Obfw Emil Schmelzinger (9./JG 11) near Attendorn (60/70 km East of Aachen), on 11 December 1943?

[kaki3152]

I think he was referring to P-47D equipped with 100 gal belly tanks. On July 28,1943, the 56 and 78th FG flew to Emmerich "on the Dutch/German border" (from the Mighty Eight)

[Nick Hector]

I was always under the impression that this story relates to the 17.8.43 raid and that the P-47s (not P-51s, they came at the end of the year) had shot down Adolf Galland's brother, Wilhelm-Ferdinand and that was the reason why the story was so poignant...

[CJE]

"Wutz" was shot down near Maastricht – West of Aachen.

[udf_00]

On 17 Aug 1943, only the 56th FG had fighter losses, 41-6372 63rd FS, 41-6398 & 42-7891 62nd FS, all in Belgium, during the afternoon mission (Martin Middlebrook).
56th FG was tasked to provide withdrawal support near the Dutch border for the bombers returning for Schweinfurt. Using "bathtub" 200 Gal paper tanks they flew 15 Mi beyond Eupen into Germany (Zemke).

[CJE]

Thanks.
Will look into the MACRs.

[F for Freddie]

Originally Posted by CJE

Those who read the memories of Albert Speer certainly recall the argument between Galland and Göring, when the latter was boarding his special train for a hunting party in the Rominter Heide, about the fact that an American escort fighter had been shot down east of Aachen. This argument ended up when Göring shouted: "The American fighters were not there, that's what I'll say to the Führer. Have you understood? It is an official order!".

Speer stated that this incident took place during the Summer of 1943.
But at that time, no Allied fighter was able to fly as far as Aachen and I assume Galland was talking of a P-51. However, this type did not appear before late December of the same year.

My guess: was it the P-51 shot down by Obfw Emil Schmelzinger (9./JG 11) near Attendorn (60/70 km East of Aachen), on 11 December 1943?

Just a query could it be not of been P38 escort fighter in 1943?

"The P-38 entered service with the 8th Air Force at a crucial moment in the daylight bombing campaign. 14 October 1943 was the date of the disastrous raid on the ball bearing factory at Schweinfurt, well beyond escort range for the P-47. For 370 miles the B-17s were unescorted. Sixty aircraft were lost, without making any significant dent on ball bearing production. For the rest of October the daylight bomber offensive was virtually suspended.
The next day the 55th Fighter Group flew its first P-38 mission from Britain, a fighter sweep over the Dutch coast. Equipped with 75 gallon drop tanks, the P-38 had an effective escort radius of 520 miles (compared to 375 miles for the P-47). In February 1944 the P-38 units received 108 gallon drop tanks, which increased their effective radius of operations to 585 miles, long enough to reach Berlin. Between October 1943 and March 1944, the P-38 was the longest range fighter available to the 8th Air Force (in March 1944 the P-51D finally received drop tanks that gave it an effective escort range of 650 miles)" Quote from HistoryOfWar.org.

[Nick Hector]

AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!
NOT a P-38. NOT a P-51.
Read or re-read the original story. It is about how Galland's brother had just been killed by P-47s (...yes, I said P-47s. Thunderbolts...) and then getting told by Goering that they (....wait for it... T H U N D E R B O L T S) couldn't fly that far.

You can even look it up in John Weal's much-maligned Fw190 Aces of the Western Front (Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 9)....

Trip trap trip trap trip trap trip trap trip trap SLAM!

[drgondog]

Nick 100% correct.

In addition, the 55th FG did not start P-38 combat ops until mid October, and P-51B on December 1 then 20th FG (P-38) on Dec 28.

I often wonder if RAF lost any Mustang II's in Germany as they could easily make Hannover/Bruswick if required to do so.. and if so, the LW would certainly be aware of the P-51 Range.

[CJE]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!
NOT a P-38. NOT a P-51.
Read or re-read the original story. It is about how Galland's brother had just been killed by P-47s (...yes, I said P-47s. Thunderbolts...) and then getting told by Goering that they (....wait for it... T H U N D E R B O L T S) couldn't fly that far.

Nick, are you sure about it?
I lost my copy of Speer's book and can only quote by memory.
"Wutz" Galland was shot down west of Aachen and it does not make sense with the argument.