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  #91  
Old 7th October 2011, 23:01
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Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source

Quote:
Originally Posted by veltro View Post
(and nonsense had little room in German brains!)
Well not in production engineering, at least. They had plenty of room for nonsense in politics, economics and strategy!
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  #92  
Old 8th October 2011, 02:47
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Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source

Of course, Nick. I took for granted to refer to technical matters...
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  #93  
Old 8th October 2011, 03:35
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Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source

Gents,

Regarding the camouflage colours of Erla Bf 109 G-10/R6s, perhaps it might be of value to know the dates of production for aircraft in the respective 15XXXX and 49XXXX werknummer series. Does such information exist?

I ask this as I believe that two colour photos exist of an Erla-built G-10, this being the kite "ge.2" of KG(J) 27 with the large green and white karoband that was discovered at Kaufbeuren. These were first published by the late Jeff Ethell in his book "Fighter Command". My images are prints made from Kodachrome copies of the originals sent to me by Jeff.

The first photo is an enlargement from a larger scene of the aircraft dump. Salient features include the Type 110 cowling, and twin-tabbed rudder. The KG(J) 27 karoband and yellow '2' are clearly visible, as a white '52' on the fin, likely an Überführungflugnummer.

The second image allows a clearer view of the rear cowling area and tip of the rudder. There appears to be a modest amount of mottling on the fuselage side in RLM 75 and possibly RLM 83 under the cockpit. Along the fuselage spine 75 is clearly evident, as is a far lighter grey that I interpret as RLM 77 above the balkenkreuz. Indeed, on the right side of the larger original image for the first photo is a similarly 75/77/76 camouflaged Bf 109 K-4 "sw.<1+I" of Stab./III./JG 53 (335XXX series?).

Exactly when this aircraft was built can only be guessed at as the werknummer is unknown and other determining features such as the canopy, radio mast, wheel size, wing bumps, etc. are not visible. I suspect that it might be a very early production example since the rudder's camouflage colours match the rest of the aircraft. Later aircraft appear to have had a greater propensity of being fitted with subcontracted components that were painted in different patterns and colours.

Combined with the aircraft physical attributes, the temporal relationship with werknummern might offer clues to determining the respective camouflage colours and schemes, and assist in identifying other aircraft in those situations were photos reveal only portions of a subject aircraft. I welcome further thoughts on the comments presented here.

Cheers,

David
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  #94  
Old 8th October 2011, 04:12
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Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source

Very nice pictures David. Your particular machines camo scheme seems to be bang on with Me 109G-10 W.Nr.490 655.
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  #95  
Old 8th October 2011, 08:41
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Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source

David,

Your point and pictures are most interesting. The second shot is quite unique by it's sharpness and preserved colors.

I won't be able to answer your query about production dates; I can only notice that the type of camouflage shown by "Gelbe 2", KG(J) 27 at Kaufbeuren does show on a majority of Erla machines, be it in the 150 - 152, 490 - 491 and 770 blocks. The ones known to me and illustrated by pictures are listed here as follows:

A: W.Nr. 150 XXX - 152 XXX

1. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 150'816 "Schwarze 4", 6./JG 2, Langensalza, June 1945.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

2. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr.150'87. "Weisse 15", Germany, summer 1945. Source: Noro 2009, p. 173.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

3.Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 150 889 "Weisse 7", 1./JG 27, Risstissen, May 1945. Prien, Rodeike and Stemmer 1998, p. 506.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

4. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 151'035, "Grüne 2", I./JG 301, Germany 1945. Source: expired Tonelli auction.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

5. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr 151 567, "White 13" 1./JG 300, Wunstorf , April 1945. Source: Noro, H. (2009) "LO+ST", Dainippon Kaiga, p. 33
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

6.Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 152'043 "Weisse 57", Central Germany 1945, Hlidebrandt 1988 p.17
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917


B. W.Nr. 490 xxx - 491 xxx

1. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490'137, "Weisse 14", 15./JG 51, Hptm Waldemar Wagler, Rinkaby, May 1945. Source: forcedlandingcollection.se
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

2. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490 383 "Rote 17", Lt. Josef Jordan, 6./JG 300, before 14 January 1945. Prien and Rodeike 1995, p. 158.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

3. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490 621 "Bianco 3-11" 3a. Sq. I. Gruppo Caccia, Lonate Pozzolo, April 1945. D'Amico and Valentini 1985, p. 98
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

4. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490 629 "Gelbe 7", Lt. Werner Petereit, 7./JG 3, Garz, 11 March 1945. Prien and Stemmer 1996, p. 386.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

5. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr.490 642 "Rote 2", 2./JG 300, Pilot Fw Gzik.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

6. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490 655 "Gelbe 24", Lt. Anton Wöffen, Staka 6./JG 27, near Rheinberg, Germany, 11 March 1945. Source: http://www.asisbiz.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

7. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 490 755 "Blaue 1", 8./JG 3, Garz, 1945. Prien and Stemmer 1996, p. 390.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

8. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 491 213 "Grüne 12", Ofhr. Bruno Klostermann, 11./JG300, Jüterbog-Waldlager, Autmun 1944. Lorant et Goyat 2005, p. 115.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

9. Bf 109 G-10, W.Nr. 491 320, "12 nero", serg. Carlo Cavagliano, 4a Squadriglia, II Gruppo Caccia, Northern Italy, before 12 February 1945. Beale, D'Amico and Valentini 1996, p. 169.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

10. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 491 354 "Giallo 2-2", 2a Sq. I. Gruppo Caccia, Lonate Pozzolo, April 1945. D'Amico and Valentini 1985, p. 98.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

11. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 491 356, Magg. Adriano Visconti, I. Gruppo Caccia, Lonate Pozzolo, April 1945. D'Amico and Valentini 1985, p. 92.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/


C. W.Nr. 770 xxx

1. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 293 "Gelbe 67", Rinkaby, 12 April 1945. Hitchcock 1977, p. 10.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

2. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 313 "Schwarze 3", Gatow, 1945. Source: Bergstrom and Pegg 2005, p. 188.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/

3. Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr.770 376 "Schwarze 9", NAGr 15, Liberec 1945. Source: Bergstrom and Pegg 2005, p. 186.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625208099917/



Actually, the ones with late war standardized tails which seem common with the K-4 camouflage pattern are very rare. The only one I know about is Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 491 300, Gardelegen 14 April 1945. Luftwaffe im Focus 2, p. 34.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

There is to my knowledge at least another Erla G-10 color picture extent, found here:
Bf 109 G-10, Erla type camouflage, Germany, 1945. Source: WW2incolour.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Hoping for a timely publication on those Erla built G-10's ;-)))

Cheers
Marc

Last edited by Marc-André Haldimann; 8th October 2011 at 09:44.
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  #96  
Old 8th October 2011, 10:44
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Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source

Most of images are Private...
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  #97  
Old 8th October 2011, 10:51
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Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source

Oups!

Checking and switching;-))

...and done!

Cheers
Marc
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  #98  
Old 8th October 2011, 10:56
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Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source

Quote:
Originally Posted by veltro View Post
Franck, there are plenty of photos available showing the starboard side of Erla-G-10s (won't say where to avoid self-promotion...).

At any rate the same applied also the few K-4s made by Erla, and this follows pure logic: they had taken so much time and trouble to redesign the frontal part of their G-10s that it would have been sheer nonsense to use a different solution for the K-4... (and nonsense had little room in German brains!)
Bondì Ferdinando, it saluto!

I didn't say the contrary; just said I've never seen and may be I got some of these but without the right explanation...
Whatever, I'm still ouidjat-without-books-home, you know that; just internet loadings...

Thanks again.

Arvëdse! Franck.
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Old 8th October 2011, 12:14
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Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source

Thank you very much Marc for your update. This image is well known and a bit doubtful about the very dark color used for camouflage:

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  #100  
Old 8th October 2011, 12:21
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Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source

A couple of thoughts here, I agree that most Erla built G-10's seems to have a freely mottled tailplanes rather than the stenciled ones often seen on Mtt Regensburg aircraft.

The JG300 aircraft you're showing are all G-14/AS aircraft, Red 17 and Green 12 were built by Mtt.Regensburg and Red 2 is a very rare Erla built Bf-109G-14/AS. So the Wrk.Nr's are wrong

Yellow 2 seems to have the smaller fuselagecross so it's not from the first batch/batches produced as those had standard fuselage crosses.

Cheers / Anders
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