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  #1  
Old 28th August 2006, 14:09
Jack Sanders Jack Sanders is offline
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VVS Statistical Digest

The Soviet statistical digest "Soviet Aviation in the Great Patriotic War by the numbers (1941-45)" is available online: http://ilpilot.narod.ru/vvs_tsifra/index.html

The seven chapters are titled as follows:
1. Key summary data on Soviet and German-fascist (sic) aviation. [Data on the Luftwaffe comes from Soviet military intelligence, whcih gives an interesting perspective].
2. Orders of battle of Soviet and German-fascist aviation.
3. Soviet aircraft inventory by type.
4. Delivery of aerial technical means (i.e. aircraft, engines and armament) to the VVS and their specifications.
5. Personnel training.
6. Combat summary.
7. The work of support services.

Many thanks to Yury Minkevich (who entered all the data into Excel by hand!) and Pyotr Andriyanov for their hard work.

There is a great amount of very interesting information in this digest, so it's definitely worth a look. It's in Russian, but if peopel are interested I could translate it into English.

Sincerely,

Jack Sanders
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  #2  
Old 28th August 2006, 15:54
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

Hello!

Thanks for the link.

My attention got this table of German allies aircraft park:
http://ilpilot.narod.ru/vvs_tsifra/gl_2/2.21.html

I cannot understand where the value of 506 airplanes for Finland (at Jun 22th, 1941) is pulled from.

At the time (25.6.41) there was 218 operational planes in FinnAF units:

40 Brewsters, 25 FIAT G.50, 29 M.S. 406, 48 Fokker XXI, 6 Curtiss (H-75), 4 Hurricanes and 24 Blenheims.

Non-operational planes and overhauled ones no way could bring the number to 506. Perhaps trainer and such are counted in?

Rest of the FinnAF numbers in the table above seem more realistic EDIT Actually not. The number 100 given for both june 1st 1943 and june 1st 1944 looks like arbitrary one. In no period did the FinnAF aircraft park fluctuate so that the would be almost three times more planes in january than there was in june!


Cheers,
Kari
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  #3  
Old 28th August 2006, 17:07
Jack Sanders Jack Sanders is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kari Lumppio
Hello!

Thanks for the link.

My attention got this table of German allies aircraft park:
http://ilpilot.narod.ru/vvs_tsifra/gl_2/2.21.html

I cannot understand where the value of 506 airplanes for Finland (at Jun 22th, 1941) is pulled from.

Rest of the FinnAF numbers in the table above seem more realistic EDIT Actually not. The number 100 given for both june 1st 1943 and june 1st 1944 looks like arbitrary one. In no period did the FinnAF aircraft park fluctuate so that the would be almost three times more planes in january than there was in june!


Cheers,
Kari
Hello!
The source of most of the data is quoted as an item in the "special archive of the general staff", published in 1946 [Спецархив ГШ ВС, инв.№ 3570, с.5. «Германская армия во второй мировой войне (в цифрах)», М., Воениздат, 1946, с.39, 67-81]. To me, this indicates that this is the wartime assessment of the military intelligence directorate of the general staff (GRU GSh), most likely based on conjecture. You'll notice that most of the data on Axis forces is seriously flawed at best, so it's usefulness is in providing a glimpse into Soviet asessments, rather than the state of the Axis air forces.

Yours sincerely,

Jack Sanders
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Old 28th August 2006, 17:43
yogybär yogybär is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

Thanks, that's a very good link!

Next stage would be to have the types "Bomb., Shturmo., Istreb." sub-divided into actual planetypes. At least for fighters, I'd love to see that...

Or does already it exist and I just missed it?
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  #5  
Old 28th August 2006, 17:52
Jack Sanders Jack Sanders is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

Quote:
Originally Posted by yogybär
Thanks, that's a very good link!

Next stage would be to have the types "Bomb., Shturmo., Istreb." sub-divided into actual planetypes. At least for fighters, I'd love to see that...

Or does already it exist and I just missed it?
Hello Jörg,
You did miss it. All of chapter 3 is dedicated to this subject. For example, http://ilpilot.narod.ru/vvs_tsifra/gl_3/3.115.html shows the inventory by air army and aircraft type on the 10th of May, 1945.

Yours sincerely,

Jack Sanders
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Old 28th August 2006, 18:51
yogybär yogybär is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

Hm...

That is just... ... ... what I searched for the last 2.5 years or so.

Thank you so much also from me to these two guys
- Yury Minkevich (who entered all the data into Excel by hand!) and
- Pyotr Andriyanov for their hard work and also you,
- Jack for sharing the link .

I personally don't need it to be translated, but a big part of the community would be much better informed I guess. Would help to get a lot of discussions on a more fact-based ground.

PS: This is the first time I use this yellow smiley...
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  #7  
Old 28th August 2006, 21:41
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

Of the German allies airplane strength data

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Sanders
Hello!
The source of most of the data is quoted as an item in the "special archive of the general staff", published in 1946 [Спецархив ГШ ВС, инв.№ 3570, с.5. «Германская армия во второй мировой войне (в цифрах)», М., Воениздат, 1946, с.39, 67-81]. To me, this indicates that this is the wartime assessment of the military intelligence directorate of the general staff (GRU GSh), most likely based on conjecture. You'll notice that most of the data on Axis forces is seriously flawed at best, so it's usefulness is in providing a glimpse into Soviet asessments, rather than the state of the Axis air forces.

Yours sincerely,

Jack Sanders
Hello!

Yes I noticed it is Soviet intelligence data. I was somehow in the belief that Soviets could spy everything they needed during the interim peace between Winter War (30.11.39-13.3.40) and Continuation War (25.6.41-5.9.44). Seems this was not the case after all.

A very good link still. Thanks again.

Kari
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  #8  
Old 29th August 2006, 15:40
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest, nice but not full and correct

Hi
Thanks for the link
Russian have made terrible work, but reading some info I see that in fact there are not correct data and full information. I explaine it using one case for example

Важнейшие датыФинляндияРумынияВенгрияИталияВсегоНа 22 июня 1941 года50650490не было1 10

1. Finland has beed already mentioned, this 506 is total (including Bristoll Bulldog and ect training plane) not combat line. There were about 220 military planes on FAF combat units on June 1941. And one but small correction such data should added after 25 VI 1941. Finland had declared war against Russian on 26 VI 1941 after surpirsed Soviet massive air attack (not declared by Russian as case of war). Most of the bombs hit civil tragets not military.

2. Rumanian had put on 22 VI about 240 comabt planes against Soviet Union, the total amount of military plane was about 670 - all planes including very old and outdatd and not servisable too. This is only airforce which in fact did attack Soviets on 22 VI 1941.

3. Hungary - 90. Strange?. I do not know how this come from?
Hungarian Air Deatachment had used about 30-50 planes during the 1-st Hungarian army tour on the East in 1941, In total could bu that Hungarian had used about 90-100 planes between 27 VI till IX 1941.
And last but not least. Hungary had declared war against Soviet on 27 VI 1941 (after strange air attack of unknow planes - bombers and figters). So on 22 VI 41 is better for Hungary "0" as it was still neutral state, not combat country.

I have seen more some mishaps in other data, if concerning VI 1941, anyway thanks for this info for Russian, which is very informative and if one man know other he/she can easly can correct this..

Regards
MirekW
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  #9  
Old 29th August 2006, 17:07
marsyao marsyao is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest

Mirek, as already mentioned, those were Soviet war-time intellegence data, it would be strange those statistic were very accurate
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  #10  
Old 30th August 2006, 18:19
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical not full credible data

Hi
Problem is that in some other data (war period) you have also under estimated own forces, and for example are excluded all U-2/Po-2 planes (as a non-combat plane). Hundreds of U-2/Po-2 anyway were used from the begining of 22 VI 1941 in military pourpes as a liason/currier "air taxi" plane even by high commanders.
So, all who belive that they got full view about Soviet air potential they have not got this but got about 80-90% of it (comat, military planes).
From these statisctic data are excluded KAE's escadrilas (spooters, laison, ambulance flightss), which had next about 300-600 planes attached to the front, army, corps units.
Anyway this is very hard work to creat such tables.


Second if there data are war data for those, who created them then should better to know that on 22 VI 1941 there were no war between Soviet Union versus Finland or Hungary. So putting the both air power have no sens as on 22 VI 1941.
If do this way also should be added (not included at all) next small air forces of Slovak, Croat, Spain, which had also fought on the Easten Front in 1941 too and later, up to 1944/45. An from 1944 - Estonian , latvian and Rusian KNOR-ROA units.
Slovak had began in June/July 1941, Spain and Croat unit a littel bit later but in November and December 1941 they had fought.
So any way therea are not detail and true data about Axis ally air forces as on 22 VI 1941 as up to the 1945.

Regards
MirekW

PS I do not agree with marsyano "(...)Soviet war-time intellegence data, it would be strange those statistic were very accurate".
You do not know what you are talking about. Read exactly info given under the tables, look at this and read it again carefuly. This is not war-data. Sorry for me not, after the war.

{1}Спецархив ГШ ВС, инв.№ 3570, с.5. «Германская армия во второй мировой войне (в цифрах)», М., Воениздат, 1946, с.39, 67-81.
{2}«Краткий обзор численности, группировки и действий авиации противника в период Отечественной войны 1941-1945 гг.». Главный штаб ВВС, УиРИО, инв.№ 1332, с.25.
{3}Стратегический очерк Великой Отечественной войны 1941-1945 гг., М., Воениздат, 1961, с.364.

</SPAN>#bn {display:block;}#bt {display:block;}

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