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Old 16th September 2005, 14:47
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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17 IX 1939 - Russian Agression on Poland

Tomorrow (17 IX 1939) will be the anniversary of Russian agression on Poland. Russian as German Ally had attacked Poland on about 5.00 a.m. Moscow time.
The agression red force had about 617.600 soldiers in the first wave. There were gathered in 2 Special Military District (Bialorussian and Kiev later Białorussian Front and Ukrainian Front). Russian had collected on the Western border 3.298 combat planes on 16 IX 1939 (this amount was higher on 2 X 1939 - about 3.700). It was the smaller part of whole power of VVS RKKA - more then 10.000 combat plane + 2.500 traineres.
Among Russian invading air forces most dominat were fighteres: 1.291 ( 66 proc. were I-16s, others - I-15bis and also 94 DI-6). Air forces had supported about 5.500 armoured vehicles (including 4.736 tanks: T-26, BTs, T-37, T-28 ect.)
During invasion and after Russian had commited many very similar and cruel cirmes as Germans did towards Poles. The most famoues Russian such achivmenet was the "Katyn affaire". Russian according state official order (Stalin Beria ect.) had mordered (it was the genocidy crime) almost 22.000 Poles (about 14.700 officers + 7.300 civils) in the spring 1940.
Among mordered then by Russian Polish officers were about 400 officers (pilots, navigators ect.) of our Lotnictwo Wojskowe who were kept in 3 "PoW" camps.

Russian did not used the whole red air force against Poles (3.300 planes) only smaller parts of it took part in active combats. The last comabts action against Poles were done in October 1939 against SGO Polesie, which capitualted on 6 X1939.
German during agression on Poland had gahtered 1941 combat planes on 1 IX 1939. The smaller amount of plane.
Russian had gathered as a Gereman Ally and friend about 51% of Polish territory with about 13,5 mln population. Many Białorusian and Ukrainina people who were freed" from Polish occupation as Russian maostly saying were later send to "Syberia" as Poles or were aslo killed by Russian (NKWD).


Reagrds

Soviet Air Force had lsot during war over Poland about 15-25 comabt planes (the lowest figures) from all reasons (combat and non-combat). There were killeld about 11 Soviet airmen.


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  #2  
Old 18th September 2005, 12:42
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Obst. Zerstorer Obst. Zerstorer is offline
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Question Re: 17 IX 1939 - Russian Agression on Poland

Where is my last post???

Do Polish censorship and propaganda rule here???
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Old 18th September 2005, 12:52
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Ruy Horta Ruy Horta is offline
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Re: 17 IX 1939 - Russian Agression on Poland

Obst. Zerstorer

Your first post was deleted because it was contrary to forum policy: non constructive and possibly offensive material. This is not an automatic endorsement of Mirek's views.

Since you are a new member, ironically with a Polish mail account, I thought you'd deserve a warning shot, perhaps I have made a mistake?

If flaming is all you want your stay with this forum will be short.

Consider this a final warning.

If you are confused, please read: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=885
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Old 18th September 2005, 14:35
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Re: 17 IX 1939 - Russian Agression on Poland

Quote:
Since you are a new member, ironically with a Polish mail account, I thought you'd deserve a warning shot, perhaps I have made a mistake?
Yes, you made a mistake! Not everybody with Polish e-mail address is from Poland.

Quote:
Your first post was deleted because it was contrary to forum policy: non constructive and possibly offensive material. This is not an automatic endorsement of Mirek's views.
Now about forum rules: As I can see no other person, except Polish users, create threats about Polish history and policy here (like 17th Septeber and Katyn for example) what obviously doesn't deal with main forum topic. This is an international forum so any nationality can't use it in its own interest ( as some "Polish Chronicle"), I suppose. I am sure Polish view of history isn't always right. That is why I wrote this deleted retort. All you have to know that at present time Poland and Russia are political enemies. Therefore Poland launched an interal and external propaganda campaign against Russia centered mainly around above-citied questions. Now such a Polish activity was started here. I deelpy disagree with this. If you don't permit me countering all these Polish agruments and showing their real goals, it will be better I go away. But be sure - then this forum become a Polish "black propaganda" board with your own permission, Admin! Will it indeed comply this forum rules? I don't think so...

Quote:
Bearing both in mind it is clear that in order to keep our focus on the military side, we cannot allow ourselves to drift deeply into politics. Material that is clearly political is off topic and will be dealt with accordingly.
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Last edited by Obst. Zerstorer; 18th September 2005 at 14:51.
  #5  
Old 18th September 2005, 15:44
ArtieBob ArtieBob is offline
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Re: 17 IX 1939 - Russian Agression on Poland

First, I am not Polish, but from the USA with about 50% German heritage. IMHO, aggression against Poland by both Germany and the USSR is well documented and not just Polish "black propaganda". It seems clear that the agreement signed by Nazi Germany and the USSR just prior to the beginning of fighting in 1939 divided Poland amongst the aggressors. The USSR apparently just waited until the Nazis had destroyed most of the Polish capability, in order to minimize it's losses. After WWII most of the German diplomatic source documents, the type which is often hidden from public view for a very long time, was made public and it seems clear that the attack on Poland from both sides was indeed agression, not in any manner defensive preemptive action. I assure you I have no political favoritism towards any of the three countries involved; Germany, Russia or Poland.

Best Regards

Artie Bob
  #6  
Old 18th September 2005, 15:51
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Re: 17 IX 1939 - Russian Agression on Poland

A mistake in giving you a warning shot...

Similar issues have cropped up before, where method was confused with message.

This forum does not endorse Mirek's or similar views, yet as long as these views are voiced within the bounds of forum rules (in part up to the moderator to decide) they are allowed for.

Counter arguments that abide by our rules are also welcome.

Your methods are at question.

Feel free to wage a constructive debate with Mirek, but according to our rules. If you do not feel you have to respect the forum rules, you leave me little leeway.

The choice is yours.
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Old 18th September 2005, 15:58
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: 17 IX 1939 - Russian Agression on Poland

I do not want to add oil, nonetheless I feel some comments are necessary.
One most important thing is that there are no views in Mirek's posting, just only facts. Everyone here may post any anniversary messages, if he considers them appropriate. Such anniversaries like this are especially important. Average people do not know when the WWII started and do not know that Soviets were the best Hitler's allies. It must be reminded all the time who was responsible for break out of most inhumane and criminal war ever.
It is particularly important having in mind a level of ignorance as presented by Zerstoerer (who has no guts to reveal his name). I would love to hear from whom areas around Ostrołęka were liberated? I would love to hear how two distinct nations of White Russia and Ukraine could have been liberated by Russia and what is the latter's claim to rule those nations? Such views are indeed repeated from the Soviet propaganda but have nothing to the truth. It is also not thruth that at present time Poland and Russia are political enemies. The truth is that Poland and Russia were and are ALWAYS political enemies and nothing can change the fact. And this has nothing to 'Polish black propaganda'(?).
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Old 18th September 2005, 16:04
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Re: 17 IX 1939 - Russian Agression on Poland

Dear ArtieBob!

1. Of course nazi-soviet attack on Poland are well documented etc. But maybe Polish chroniclers should seek on some historical forum to propagate their history???

2. I am sure you don't know anything about polish-nazi joint agression against Tchechoslovakia in 2.10.1938 after Munchen agreement. Yes, Polish users don't like to speak a lot about it. It is awkwardly for them to condemn Stalin for alliance with Hitler when Polish authorities did the same a year earlier!


Regards

Zerstorer

Quote:
Average people do not know when the WWII started and do not know that Soviets were the best Hitler's allies.
As for Hitler's allies I wrote about it above!

Quote:
It is particularly important having in mind a level of ignorance as presented by Zerstoerer
What ignorance???

Quote:
I would love to hear from whom areas around Ostrołęka were liberated? I would love to hear how two distinct nations of White Russia and Ukraine could have been liberated by Russia and what is the latter's claim to rule those nations?
Don't you remember WHO liberrated Vilnus, Mynsk and Kiev in 1920??? I think is was peace-loved Polish Army! Am I right? Did Poland have right to rule a half of Belarussia and Ukraine??? Sure, Poland did but USSR didn't, pharesee!

Quote:
It is also not thruth that at present time Poland and Russia are political enemies. The truth is that Poland and Russia were and are ALWAYS political enemies and nothing can change the fact.
Great! Well, go speak about it on some Russian forum Polish nationalist, not here!

PS1. Not always! In the Polish People's Republic was differently. Polish people liked Soviet very much then - especially when Khrushchev, Brezhnev or Gorbatschev came on trip to Warsaw! They were always welcomed by crowds of delighted polish peope!

PS2. As historey teaches us - that was Polish authorities and noblemans who call Russian tsars on help many times in the XVIII century! So, tsars were sending Russian army into Poland and finally anarchic Poland lose its independence!
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Last edited by Obst. Zerstorer; 18th September 2005 at 16:40.
  #9  
Old 18th September 2005, 17:09
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: 17 IX 1939 - Russian Agression on Poland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obst. Zerstorer
1. Of course nazi-soviet attack on Poland are well documented etc. But maybe Polish chroniclers should seek on some historical forum to propagate their history???
This is a historical forum. You do not like it - leave it.

Quote:
2. I am sure you don't know anything about polish-nazi joint agression against Tchechoslovakia in 2.10.1938 after Munchen agreement. Yes, Polish users don't like to speak a lot about it. It is awkwardly for them to condemn Stalin for alliance with Hitler when Polish authorities did the same a year earlier!
Another case of ignorance. There was no 'nazi' country but Germany. We do like to speak about it, and also why Śląsk Cieszyński was at Czech hands. The difference is that there were no Polish Einsatzkommandos nor People's Commissars murdering people there. Also, nobody is condemning Stalin for this alliance, we just want to have him responsible for outbreak of WWII and crimes against humanity on equal terms with Hitler.

Quote:
What ignorance???
Complete.

Quote:
Don't you remember WHO liberrated Vilnus, Mynsk and Kiev in 1920??? I think is was peace-loved Polish Army! Am I right? Did Poland have right to rule a half of Belarussia and Ukraine??? Sure, Poland did but USSR didn't, pharesee!
Yes, indeed, Poland had a right to the areas. Actually, like it happens with the neighbours, population of those areas was completelly mixed ethnicaly. Poland, Lithuania, White Russia or Ukraine may have claims for those areas but it is not the matter of neither Germany or Russia.

Quote:
PS. Not always! In the Polish People's Republic was differently. Polish people liked Soviet very much then - especially when Khrushchev, Brezhnev or Gorbatschev came on trip to Warsaw! They were always welcomed by crowds of delighted polish peope!
Oh yes, certainly, you know that better out there!

Quote:
As historey teaches us - that was Polish authorities and noblemans who call Russian tsars on help many times in the XVIII century! So, tsars were sending Russian army into Poland and finally anarchic Poland lose its independence!
First, democratic, not anarchic, second, it seems you have no slightest idea about Polish history.

Would you dare to reveal your name?

Last edited by Franek Grabowski; 18th September 2005 at 17:13.
  #10  
Old 18th September 2005, 18:10
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Re: 17 IX 1939 - Russian Agression on Poland

There is fact and opinion, both are present in the first post, there is no official endorsement of the second. As long as any relevant discussion is waged in a gentlemanly fashion there is no reason why it should not be allowed.
  1. Unfortunately this thread is bound to run amok without constant moderating action.
  2. We have a new member who does not have enough sense to understand that being new does imply you have to show a little tact.
I am left with little choice but to close this thread.
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