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Old 8th March 2005, 01:24
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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65 anniversary of Katyn massacre

A few days ago 65 years passed since Soviet government signed order to execute Polish POWs. In the effect 20,000+ Polish officers and policemen were murdered, most if not all receiving a shot into the back of head.
Among them were aviators, a few of them for example. Zbigniew Franciszek Szubert of III/6 Dyon was a fighter pilot, downed and wounded was captured by Soviets. Janina Lewandowska, daughter of gen. Dowbor-Muśnicki, was a liason pilot on an unarmed training aircraft, taken POW she was handed over to Soviets by Germans. Zygmunt Babiński in 1920 almost alone stopped Budenny's cavalry, straffing it in a Bristol Fighter. Between the wars he was a well known sport flyer.
Part of mass graves were uncovered by Germans in 1943. After Polish request to Red Cross to investigate, Soviet Union single handedly broke relations with Polish government. Post war a few German POWs were trialed and executed by Soviets 'for murdering Polish POWs'.
So called Katyn massacre was surrounded by lies, not only Soviet (which is at least understandable) but also by Western powers, afraid of spoiling good relations with Moscow.
Now, on the anniversary, Putin announced that all proceedings concerning investigation of the crime are stopped and that Russia will not hand over the files as they are secret. At the very same time European Parliament refused to commemorate murdered officers, which are only a symbol of Soviet repressions. EP already commemorated Auschwitz Camp victims as well as those kille din Madrid bomb attack a year ago.
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Old 8th March 2005, 13:51
Hawk-Eye Hawk-Eye is offline
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Katyn

I feel this time Franek is entirely right.

Besides, Putin OUGHT TO KNOW that trying to bury events of this kind does not work. See the extermination of the Armenians by the Turcs or the British colonial massacres, i.a. in India, or the wholesale extermination of the rightful inhabitants and owners of North and South America, the "Indians". There were no mass media and no TV reports then but all the same... The main result achieved, if any, is rising suspicion and accusations, which then even can become worse than the truth, however embarrassing for Russia and Putin...
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Old 14th March 2005, 02:51
Benoit Douville Benoit Douville is offline
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Yep, Franek is totally right, we should never forget that terrible tragedy that happened in the Katyn forest in 1940. Here is the Katyn Memorial:



Regards
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Old 31st March 2005, 19:51
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: 65 anniversary of The „Katyn” Genocide - Russian Crime and Dishonor!

The „Katyn” Genocide - Russian Crime and Dishonor!





Hi Farnek





I am a little bit confused reading your post about Katyn genocidy. I feel you have done not very detail info about this Russian’s crime. So I have decied to make aditional inputs to your post.

In the Polish Soviet-Russian relations in XX ceuntry there are several “hot spots”. One of them is 17 IX 1939 and the next following one is “Katyn GenocityAffair”.



I think that “13 April” is a “better” memory day for this anniversary and it is very symbolic date. On 13 April German radio had made public information about finding in Katyn forest bodies of 15.000 killed by Rusian Polish officers (missing PoW in Russia). It was a propaganda data, in fact in Katyn forest were mordured by Russian 4.424 Polish officers (including 183 airmen) coming from only one Russian PoW camp - Kozielsk. German then did not have full information and picture about this affair simply overclaimng amount of mordered Poles by Russin almost 3-4 times.



Russian do not want to admit now (in 2005) that the Katyn was genocity in spite of that they officaly had said about this crime in 1945 that it was the German genocity (Soviet persecutor Rudenko used such a words during the Nurenberg trial).

Russians are saying now that there was simply oridinary killing, no any genocidy, denaing and refusing to admit that it was genocity. For Poles it is obvious, it was genocidy as many more were made by Germans in 1939-45 on Polish citisents (Poles, Jews, Gypsies, Ukrainian, Bialorrusian, ect.).



Beside “Katyn forest” the next places of Russian genocidy are:



2. Russian had mordered in Charkov prison the same time 3.820 Polish officers (including 83 airmen) - they were commming from Russian Ostaszkov PoW camp.

3. Russian in Miednoye had mordered next 6.311 Poles the same time - mostly police men corps (also were 2 airmen).

4. In other Russian prisons in the same time were mordered next 7.395 Poles, mostly civils, private owner, persecutors, state and local adminstration representatives, a few offciers ect (there were next 60 airmen).

Among almost 22.000 mordered Poles by Russian were in all 328 Polish airmen (young and old officers).



Genocidy was done according official Stalin and his team (Molotow, Beria ect.) order given to NKVD’s fire squads as Franke have mentiedned earlier.



These about 7.400 civils were mordered by Russian in Zachodnia Bialorusi and Zachodnia Ukraina prisons - former Polish terrory inavaded and occupied by Russian. Among Russian’s victims were: 48 university proffesors, 820 doctors, 1.500 teachers of high and primary schools and ingeneurs, 110 writers and journalists - no workers, no peasants – they were intelectuals.



One also should know that after 22 VI 1941 (22.VI - 1.VII 1941) in all Soviet prisons on Western Bialorus and Western Ukriana NKWD priosn’s guards had killed next about 20.000-35.000 Polish citisens (Poles, Jews, Ukrainian, Bialorusian), among killed then were also a few (no more then several tens soldiers) German PoW (mostly comming from Luftwaffe units crews, shot down over Soviet territory) who where taken to the prison duirng he first days of German-Soviet war.

Killed people were mostly political prisoners, ordianry criminals were freed by NKVD’s guards. This is also less even know Russian genocidy made on “Poles” prisoners.



One also should know that in 1944-45 Soviet marial courts had killed several tens Germans soldiers and officers captured and accused exactly according Soviets courts/persecutors for “Katyn Genocity”! Soviet persecutors used exactly the word genocidy towards German accused and killed for this “Katyn crime!

I say again during Nurymberg trial Soviet presecutor (Rudenko) had also said that Katyn was German genocity and the German had responsible for mordering about 11.000 Polish officers. This was said then by Soviet side not for others!



Now in 2004/5 Russian side (“president Putin’s team”) is saying the Katyn was simple ordianry crime made by Soviet. After “60 years” they have changed mind and preception of this case!



Now in Russian-Polish realtions the Katyn genocity is directly campared by Russian with mordering by Poles about 100.000 (or 50-60.000 depends) Sovite PoW captured during Polish-Soviet wars 1919-1920. This figure is publicised very often by Russian as a counterbalance to own genocidy. Such figure is higly publicited after surfaced on the begining of 90-ties the true about Katyn genocidy, when at last Russian very stubornly have admited – Yes - no any German but we, Russian had terminated Poles PoW in our “peace and love” camps.



The fact about this “Pole’s genocidy” of Soviet PoW in 1919-1920 is pattern of simply Soviet-Russian data PR manipulation. There are plenty of true proofs that fact are agains this high figures. In Polish prisons had died for illness, some kind of lack of medicine treatmend, typhus, flue about 16-18.000 Soviet-Russian PoW. As many PoW had died in camps during WW I, WW II in other wars.

The main point of difference is this one: there were no any deliberatly Polish state’s or army’s or unit’s orders to kill any Soviet PoW in any Polish camps in 1919-1921. This is crucial difference. The same fate (daying of illnes, lack of tratment) had the Polish PoW kept in Soviet camps in 1919-1921. Soviet-Russian side also forgot to say what they did with white army offciers (mostly Russian) taken to the prison in 1918-1921 during civil war in Russia. I can say one – Soviet-Russian were not human orieted to own white army Russian offciers.



Soviet-Russian pseudohistorians are saying about Poles that in Tuchola prison, as they love to compare and call it - “camps of death” - were killed about 22.000 Soviets PoW in 1920-1921. Fact are against this idiots, and not true claims. Soviet PoW were kept there for about 13 months (from the end VIII 1920 to X 1921). In fact in Tuchola had died exactly 1.867 Soviets PoW. About 11 time less then Russian are cliamed. Most cases of dead there were from ephidemy of typhuis, czerwonka, cholera.



Soviet-Russian side do not want to say or admit that about 25.000 ex Soviet PoW had changed the side and had joined Polish Army to fight against Bolshevist-Soviet Regime (1919-1920).



The real figures of died in the Polish camps (1920-1921) are quite similar but the reason of these deads are different. Second many Polish PoW were killed by Soviet too in 1920-1921 - read Isaac Babel diary for example, when he quite well writen about Russian treatemnt of Polish PoW. Offciers were deliberatly mordered on the spot!

Clising this I can proof that any Soviet PoW were not deliberatly killed according any official paper written by state, army, unit order (given by Pilsudzki or somebody else).

I can proof too that Russian party and goverment had ordered in March 1940 to mordered Poles due to that Poles were Poles – origin and nation. So Russian did the genocidy (the similar to German genocidy) because Russian had mordered healsy, inteligent, selected people by deliberatly sentenced them for death. They were killed because were Poles elite and they did not want to co-operate with “Stalin” – they had refused to joined Soviet Army and side.

They were Polish patritos not Soviet orietned traitors (only several tens of this 14.500 officers and police man changed the side! And save their life)

We Poles fought against German and their tighly supporters Russian ally, this is second not nice true for Soviet firends of Hitler.

Russians were Hitler’s brathers in arms (kameraden) and supported Germans with fuel, food, row materials, and also worked in co-operation against Polish undegroond movments (Gestapo-NKWD meetings in Poland in December 1939 in Zakopane - Poland territory occupied by Germans).





Ending this I remeber one lesson was told by my cousin. He was several years in Syberia (1945-52). He told me such a thing about Russian, he had lerned it in “matuszka Russia” -

“When you will be catched on hand, begin imiedietly to laudly cry this is not your hand!”. This is the same with “Katyn genocidy”. Russian behaviour is always the same.

Russian loudly cry that are not responsilbe for these gonocidy is a simple empty talking. Katyn was Soviet genocidy and now is the Russian disgrace, dishonor.



Regards

Mirek Wawrzynski

a Pole
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  #5  
Old 2nd April 2005, 04:00
Artist Artist is offline
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Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre

I was only about 11 or 12 when I read about the Katynwood Massacre in the WW II history magazines of the early 1970's. I remember even at that age how deaply it effected me. I read these magazines to study what I thought was the glory and excitment of WW II. I used to think about the article all the time, but it has been many years since I have done this. Thank you for the reminder.

Bob
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Old 2nd April 2005, 13:59
Hawk-Eye Hawk-Eye is offline
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Genocide

Mirek I agree with you but please note : the word you want to use is genocide in English.
Nevertheless I don't think we can say that the USSR, or more accurately the Russians, committed a "genocide" in Poland. A genocide is the systematic killing of all members of a nation etc. including workers, farmers etc., not only the intellectual élite. I think the Russians just wanted Poland to become part of Russia again (like in the past) - always that horrible Russian imperialism (see Georgia and other countries...). If the Russians really had tried to commit a genocide in Poland they'd killed at least 10 million Poles, possibly more (there were approx. 30 million I think), proving the intention of SYSTEMATIC elimination of this nation. They "only" wanted to eliminate those who were educated and able to think (teachers, writers, officers, politicians, doctors etc.), and understood politics, in order not to have any trouble when integrating Poland into Russia. Besides, most of them disliked communism very much, which was a crime already in Soviet eyes.
Especially during the Vietnam War which ended 1975 all those disgusting communists and communist-lovers in the WEST kept repeating that the USA were committing a "genocide" in Vietnam. They systematically misused this word, which ought to be used carefully, for their low propaganda purposes. This is why this word lost part ot its meaning - because of these dirty, barking communist traitors, who now have become very, very discrete... The massive bombing of North and even South Vietnam by the USA certainly was not okay but this was a brutal and stupid way of waging war, no genocide. This is the way American people and governments are : "the big stick". Ha!
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Old 2nd April 2005, 19:17
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Genocide - a definition

Weird, a thread was closed to avoid a discussion on a subject that is clearly defined and not to be discussed.
A UN convention on genocide of 1948 in article 2 says:
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
  • (a) Killing members of the group;
  • (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  • (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  • (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
  • (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html
Several actions of Soviet Union fit the definition not only in regard of Poles but also other nations like Chechens, Tatars or Ukrainians to name a few.
Why to discuss the obvious?
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Old 2nd April 2005, 20:50
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Ruy Horta Ruy Horta is offline
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Re: Genocide - a definition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski
Weird, a thread was closed to avoid a discussion on a subject that is clearly defined and not to be discussed.
Franek you are right!

Here have your pie and eat it.
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Old 5th April 2005, 19:42
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre

War is legalized killing. Then we have the illegal killing of combatants and non-combatants. In all cases, everyone is equally dead. In my opinion, no one should be killing anyone but the legal and illegal killing continues, daily.

Franek, if you want to complain to anyone, complain to the German and Russian governments directly. Your desire to call this genocide on the Polish people is just part of the killing of people by other people for ages. Your nationalistic displays here have no bearing on actual history. The truth is known by the survivors. And there was an American report on the Katyn Forest Massacre.

My father was in the Polish Army.


Regards,
Ed

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There is an English language book by Polish General Anders. You should read it. And if it is hatred you have for the Germans and/or Russians, talk to someone about this. "Hate is too great a burden to bear."
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Old 10th April 2005, 18:26
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre

Ed
I am not sure what is your point but you definetelly confuse war with genocide, both being clearly defined. Genocide may occur without any war, as sample of Soviet or German (Gypsies) genocides indicate.
Otherwise I really do not understand what my post reminding anniversary of this murder had anything to 'nationalistic displays'.
Finally, complains to German or Russian governments are just only part of the story. It is a fact both British and US governments deliberatelly lied about the massacre and they still do not admit to. I understand they are elected democratically, so I feel free to complain to their electors.
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