Info needed on Me109G werk number

[harrison987]

I am working with the restoration of an Me109G. It is basically a G-2 fuselage (retractable tail wheel), with G6 wings, G5 cowlings, and an AS engine. She was flying 20 years ago, so I suspect she was made like this to have her airworthy (combined the best features and parts to have a flyer). AS has the regular supercharger mounted.

New data tags were made for registration purposes around 20 years ago. I suspect that maybe 1 or 2 tags originals were remaining, and the previous owner made up new ones to replace the missing. At present, there are NO original tags.

The werk number on all tags, and written on the tail is W.Nr.164636.

My werk number sourcing is limited, but as far as I knew, there was a GAP between 164000 and 165000...is this correct?

The number does not seem like it was pulled at random, so need confirmation that NO aircraft had this number.

As were are trying to get her back to arworthy (she was flying 2 years ago), we want to have her as accurate as possible.

The big issue is that it is a combination of G-2, G-5, G-6, and LATE G-6, having the AS Engine. So we need to re-build her as G2, G6, or G6 AS. If there WAS a 164636 which was an AS, we would obviously go that route. The problem is determining what is what.

Can anyone help?

[ChrisS]

Excellent news that you are restoring this aircraft, but may I ask you how came by it? I have followed the fates of most of the world's German made Bf 109's over the last 20 years and have never come across yours, or at least a preserved one marked W.Nr. 164636. If it's not confidential I would be very grateful to know.

Thanks

Chris

[Franek Grabowski]

Considering it was flying some 20 years ago, it must be a Buchon with swapped identity. I am wondering what aircraft this could be. MBB has two conversions, one is in Germany under repairs I believe (#7 I believe), and the other flyer was MBB's aircraft crashed in 1980s. I thought the latter was just rebuilt into the current D-FMBB.

[RT]

But for sure 164xxx is not a G-2 nd as tail is part of the fuselage..

164636 has been completed by Mtt someday around august 1944

Remi

[harrison987]

Hi Guys,

no, the current flying FMBB is not the one that crashed. They wrote it off and returned it in damaged condition to the original owner who was an elderly man. He basically gave it to them for flying on the condition that if it crashed, it would be returned to him.

It was to stay in Germany and be placed on static display, however it was sold to an private owner in Florida 20 years ago. It was in storage, and now is under airworthy restoration.

The problem is all paperwork from EADS shows this as being the aircraft. EADS also has confirmed it. however...the structural damage at time of crash is NOT on this aircraft. So we think the original owner may have swapped out Section 1-2.

The fuselage is German, as are the wings...the only thing Buchon is the cockpit area.

What we believe is that after the crash, the owner (who was a large collector) re-built it for static using original parts from W.Nr 164636. Which would explain why everything is marked as such (he kept the G2 tailcone installed).

Another interesting thing, is a fan-site claims the one which crashed in the 1980's (which we are restoring), was believed to be Buchon...but after careful examination, it ended up being German afterall...

Personally think the information is wrong, as I can clearly ID the Buchon parts...but this is from Adlertag.de

"At the beginning of the seventies, the Messerschmitt AG decided to bring a Bf 109 back in the skies with Daimler-Benz engine. therefore, the Spanish HA-1112 M-1L serial number 195, built in 1959 and later displayed as "black 8" of the I./JG 27 in an US museum. When the restoration begun in 1976, the workers discovered, that the fuselage came from German production, being an "original" Bf 109 fuselage. The engine came from Sweden in 1978, being a license built DB 605. It was checked in Germany and installed to the Bf 109. A huge number of problems threatened to destroy the project, but on 4th April 1982 the Bf109 took of for its maiden flight.

Until summer 1983 it flew 49 times and was a highlight at many air-shows.
On June the 3rd 1983, the plane broke out during the takeoff and ended as a wreck."

What I need to confirm is:

1) was there a 164636 (my limited resourced show a gap between 164000 and 165000).

2) if it did exist, was it an AS?



Thanks again guys!

mike

[Revi16]

My limited resources show,

163000-164000 Mtt Reg.
164900-165000 Mtt Reg.

Here'e three shots of Wnr.163 269 in Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G & K Series by Prien & Rodeike. Somewhat close to your Wnr..

Regards,
Mike

[Tomislav Haramincic]

Originally Posted by RT

164636 has been completed by Mtt someday around august 1944
Remi

Hello Remi,

Are you sure about this? According to my files WNr.164636 should not exist.
The 163xxx block ends with 163994, then there is a huge gap, and then the 164xxx block starts at 164901.

regards,
Tomislav

[harrison987]

Hi Tomislav!

That was my impression as well...but...why the gap?

Aren't all werk numbers recorded from losses, as oppsoed to actual production documentation?

Mike

[George Hopp]

Actually, both of you are saying the same thing, that there is a gap between 163 994 (G-6/AS production, August 1944), and 164 901 (G-6 production, also August 1944). There are two a/c built by Regensburg in the gap, 164 283 (G-14, Aug 44) and 164 380 (G-6, Aug 44). All this from Peter Schmoll's "Die Messerschmitt Werke."

Why the gap? Perhaps assigned to another company? Perhaps someone knows.

All the best,
George

[harrison987]

So I suppose at this point it is impossible to determine if 164636 is an AS?