Wrack of Do217 on Ösel 1944

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello friends,

in attachment photo from http://www.militaar.net/phpBB2/viewt...t=211&start=90
Location - Kuressaare (Arensburg) area.

Gentlemen from that forum assumed that it is Do217M-1 from 4.(F)/Nacht lost in Dec.1944.

Any ideas?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Kari Lumppio]

Privet!

It is k7+JM (= 4.(F)/Nacht). I do not have any info about the loss itself. I have asked from those really in know and there is no data for a December loss. Perhaps earlier loss or unrecorded.

Cheers,
Kari

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Thank you, Kari!

If it isn't December loss, it maybe Do217 claimed as destroyed on the ground on 6.Oct.44 by pair of Yak-9 (15.ORAP VVS Baltic fleet) during recce flight.
But in Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen for Oct.44 no losses of 4.(F)/Nacht.
1 Do217 was lost "ohne Feindeinwirkung" in Sep.44. Do you know, when and where?

Best regards,
Andrey

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Also, 6.Oct.44 17 Pe-2 58.BAP 276.BAD 13.Air Army claimed 4 fighter destroyed and 1 bomber, 1 fighter damaged on the ground on airfield Kogula (Kagul) 11 km NW Kuressaare. Maybe bomber was long-suffering Do217.

[Kari Lumppio]

Privet Andrey!

October would be much more logical time for the Do 217 loss in my opinion. Perhaps it was indeed damaged on ground by the Yak/Pe-2 and not repaired until the Front moved over it. And then only in December 4.(F) /Nacht finished their paperwork???

I have asked some more data from a colleague to clear couple of things. As I am just leaving for holidays and there is lots to do at work I fear the possible answers from me will be postponed to mid July.

As you mention the 276 (not 278) BAD Pe-2. Do you happen to know details of a Pe-2 loss at Vintri, Saaremaa? You can find the place in maps.google for example. Also shown as "Vindri" at the map (the thread page you linked) under the "Leo-Riegel". Most likely time is late October, 1944. There are pieces of this Pe-2 in the local museum there and they are said to come from a Vintri Pe-2 wreck.

Of the September loss. Could this be the Dornier (?) Kozhedub writes about in his memories? IIRC the incdicent was somehwhere over lake Võrtsjärvi at mainland Estonia.


Cheers,
Kari

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Kari!

Thank you again.

Originally Posted by Kari Lumppio

October would be much more logical time for the Do 217 loss in my opinion.

Yes, but absence of losses in "Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen" for Oct.44 ...

Originally Posted by Kari Lumppio

As you mention the 278 BAD Pe-2. Do you happen to know details of a Pe-2 loss at Vintri, Saaremaa? You can find the place in maps.google for example. Also shown as "Vindri" at the map (the thread page you linked) under the "Leo-Riegel". Most likely time is late October, 1944. There are pieces of this Pe-2 in the local museum there and they are said to come from a Vintri Pe-2 wreck.

276.BAD, not 278.BAD. I know about Vintri due to ill-fated landing of 300.Regiment (Soviet Estonian) in that place on 12.Oct.44.
About Pe-2 wreck at Vintri: maybe it is No.17/286 (Korostylev - Shikhaleyev - Saunin) from 58.BAP 276.BAD, FTR from recce mission to Sworbe on 9.Oct.44.
It was a sole Pe-2 lost in Moonsund operation in Oct.-Nov.44.

Originally Posted by Kari Lumppio

Could this be the Dornier (?) Kozhedub writes about in his memories?

As far as I know, Kozhedub never fought in Estonia. In Sept.44 he was on Ukraine.

Cheers,
Andrey

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

I received answer to my query about the Do 217. There namely is a loss data for a Do 217 K7+JM (Thanks to Matti Salonen):

" 1944-03-08, 4. Nachtaufkl.St. (FAG 2), Do 217M-1, 326403, K7+JM, (Raum Sarny-Gomel), Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %. Start um 18.50 Uhr.
Flugzeugführer Olt Wollny, Erwin, vermißt
Beobachter Lt Hillebrand, Anton, vermißt
Bordfunker Fw Leonhard, Adolf, vermißt
Bordwart Fw Oesterreich, Rudolf, vermißt "

This location is hundreds of kilometers away from Saaremaa (Ösel) island. Also the time does not rhyme well with the battles over the island. Perhaps location and/or time is wrong or mixed up with some other Nachtaufklärung unit loss? I don't have the answer.


The flights with recorded Do 217 codes in Finnish Air Observation material do not include any K7+JM so no help from that direction.

I think 4.(F)/Nacht summary losses would add clarity to this puzzle but I do not have access to them (do they exist?).


Of the Soviet side issues:

276.BAD, not 278.BAD. I know about Vintri due to ill-fated landing of 300.Regiment (Soviet Estonian) in that place on 12.Oct.44.
About Pe-2 wreck at Vintri: maybe it is No.17/286 (Korostylev - Shikhaleyev - Saunin) from 58.BAP 276.BAD, FTR from recce mission to Sworbe on 9.Oct.44.
It was a sole Pe-2 lost in Moonsund operation in Oct.-Nov.44.

Thanks a million for this piece of information! Thanks for the error correction, too. I can only blame slip of finger and/or my deteriorating near vision. I should know the 13 VA regiments in my dreams by now.

As far as I know, Kozhedub never fought in Estonia. In Sept.44 he was on Ukraine.

Are there different versions of the memories? Please see a thread I started few years ago:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=5338

BTW The special unit I was asking perhaps was 2./JG 54 (including Otto Kittel?) which was based at Oberpahlen (Põltsamaa, Estonia) on 2 September 1944 (Thank you Andrew Arthy!).

I also asked about the Estonian base for 176 GIAP in a Russian forum:
http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/archive/68/68872.htm

And while I am still in speed. Did 176 GIAP fly La-5 or La-7 in this period? I refer to my question in the same Russian forum years ago (attachments sadly gone by now):
http://vif2ne.ru/nvi/forum/0/archive/100/100845.htm






All the best,
Kari

[andrus]

Soviet Baltic Navy (15.orap) claimed one Do-215 on 19.December 1944.
What is known about this loss from German side?

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello Kari!

Originally Posted by Kari Lumppio

I received answer to my query about the Do 217. There namely is a loss data for a Do 217 K7+JM (Thanks to Matti Salonen):

" 1944-03-08, 4. Nachtaufkl.St. (FAG 2), Do 217M-1, 326403, K7+JM, (Raum Sarny-Gomel), Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %. Start um 18.50 Uhr.
Flugzeugführer Olt Wollny, Erwin, vermißt
Beobachter Lt Hillebrand, Anton, vermißt
Bordfunker Fw Leonhard, Adolf, vermißt
Bordwart Fw Oesterreich, Rudolf, vermißt "

This location is hundreds of kilometers away from Saaremaa (Ösel) island. Also the time does not rhyme well with the battles over the island. Perhaps location and/or time is wrong or mixed up with some other Nachtaufklärung unit loss? I don't have the answer.

The flights with recorded Do 217 codes in Finnish Air Observation material do not include any K7+JM so no help from that direction.

I think 4.(F)/Nacht summary losses would add clarity to this puzzle but I do not have access to them (do they exist?).

Thank you and Matti for valuable info.
Maybe new Do217 became K7+JM after the loss of No.326403 ? Or attribution of the photo incorrect?

About Kozhedub: sorry, it is my error, really epic fail! His career isn't in the focus of my interest, but anyway...

All the best,
Andrey